Old newbie weaning off notation

Whistle
1

Hi. I am new to this board. Looking at old posts, I see that my story is not as unique as I may have thought. I am 43-years-old and am just picking up the whistle. My quick story: In my teens, I took lessons in classical flute. I studied for 2 or 3 years, but never really got past beginner level. My timing and rhythm seemed nonexistent, I got discouraged, and for the past 30 years dismissed myself as musically hopeless. Now, I feel like I’m not willing to settle for that. I also feel that if I immerse myself in the music, have confidence, play tunes that I love, and think of it in terms of “playing” rather than “practicing,” I can learn to play the tin whistle. Basic fingering and reading music come easily from my flute days.

A couple of questions for y’all: 1) I’ve come to see that reading and relying on musical notation is a real hindrance. I think relying on notation feeds my need to process the music in my brain, rather than to “get” it in my body. But if I try to figure out a tune by ear, I just feel stuck. When I hear a note, I’m not even close to being able to identify it. I can use trial and error, but that feels cumbersome and like I’m not learning anything. Any suggestions for how to wean off notation?

  1. Stupid question, no doubt: I’ve been playing on an old whistle I had lying around. I assume it’s a D. But how do I know? :confused:

  2. Finally, I recently bought Grey Larsen’s Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle. I think it’s a great book (w/ CDs), and he has helped me understand why I should wean off notation. On the other hand, there’s a lot of theory at the beginning about scales and stuff. How important is this? Do most whistlers know it? It seems like it puts me back into trying to intellectualize the whole thing. Plus, I just don’t get it.

Thanks.

Bob

2

I can only answer your first question (I think I can answer it) since I myself am a newbie. My advice, pick up some cds with some whistle on them (not incredibly compliacted ones, somehting along the lines of the Ochs tutorial cd) listen to them all the time. When you’re not listening to them, practice whistle, even just doing scales over and over. Eventually you should start to get an ear for the notes… that’s how it worked for me, practice, practice, practice.

3

I think you’re instincts are right. Trial and error is just fine. Put on the tune you want to learn, and play along. It will sound awful for a while, and then sort itself out. You’ll find that you’ll start hitting the right notes without even knowing what you are doing. It’s a thrill. You can slow stuff down on the computer (Transcribe! or The Amazing Slowdowner). You can also break up the tune into chunks, but if you do so, go by phrases (musically meaningful chuncks).

  1. Stupid question, no doubt: I’ve been playing on an old whistle I had lying around. I assume it’s a D. But how do I know? > :confused: >

You’ll need a piano or some other way to tell the pitch. Chances are it’s a D, anyway.


  1. Finally, I recently bought Grey Larsen’s Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle. I think it’s a great book (w/ CDs), and he has helped me understand why I should wean off notation. On the other hand, there’s a lot of theory at the beginning about scales and stuff. How important is this? Do most whistlers know it? It seems like it puts me back into trying to intellectualize the whole thing. Plus, I just don’t get it.

Thanks.

Bob

Forget the theory, it’s not stuff you need to know in order to play. For what you are trying to do, it sound like the Bill Ochs tutorial would be a better fit. Later, if you are playing and you’d like to know more you can go back and read it, but you can be a perfectly competent musician without knowhing that stuff.

4

Hi Bob!

Your instincts regarding learning whistle and Irish trad are dead on. Go with 'em! Forget the scales, and happy playing!

5

I know I’m swimming against popular opinion here, but I think being able to read music is not a hinderance. In fact, it’s a fast way to learn new tunes. Then after you get the notes down, you can shut the book and listen to different people play it on CD’s or live and then begin to give it some life. And I think that if you learn to play Irish music, you can take a new tune from a page and figure out how to play it well.

6

I agree. It’s that old “the more you know, the more you know…” thing.

However, I do think it’s important to realize that it is not possible to accurately notate a trad tune in conventional musical notation. As long as you’re using your ears as well as your eyes, I think you’ll do fine.

–James

7

FJohnSharp is on the money - note? - and I heartily concur. I read notation and am glad for it. I play many tunes over until I find the ones I really like then commit them to memory and make them mine (so to speak) adding as needed to confirm it mine. I then listen to others play the same tunes and play along but seldom “copy” someone else - then its not me but them. No question you pick up great crans, et al, by listening and then put them in where YOU want, as you feel the need to – or not to.

This subject goes on endlessly with many on each side. All of the above is my own opinion, YMMV.

BillG

8

i heard it’s good to learn your first 30 tunes or so by notation.
but after this, it’s recommended to learn by ear, if you’re able.

9

we get into this argument all the time in the dulcimer groups - and I’m sure you get it with every instrument! “Is it better to read music / TAB / notation or play by ear?” My answer is “yes”.

First and foremost - do whatever is right for you. If you feel comfortable playing a sheet of paper in front of you, and you panic if you don’t have it, then by all means use it. Just be forewarned, that in a jam session, while you are looking for the paper for “Whiskey 'Fore Breakfast”, the rest of the people will be four rounds into the song before you find it!

And, unless you do as others have said (and the music is really basic) and get rid of the paper sooner or later, you will be playing someone else’s arrangement of the song, not YOUR arrangement. Again, if that’s what you want to do, then go for it. But if you want your own arrangement, you’re not going to do that by playing off a paper made by someone else.

If you feel you really CAN’T play from just listening, take one song that you want to learn. Find recordings, midi’s, whatever of it and listen, listen, listen. Don’t even try to play anything until you’ve listened for a week. Then, pick up your whistle (or whatever instrument) and find the beginning note. If you’ve listened enough to the song so it’s REALLY in your brain, you’ll know if the next note is going up or down the scale. Find it by hit or miss, and continue. Play over and over each phrase, building on your learning. Search out the basic tune first - then, after you have that, work on ornamentation.

In our beginners mountain dulcimer workshop - we don’t give out a piece of TAB until the fifth lesson. We do this for several reasons, but mainly to give the player confidence that they CAN do a song strictly by listening (we do give them a tape of the song we want to work on). Almost no one has totally failed to find at least the basic tune (we did have one student fail at it, but she also couldn’t hear rhythm - but she still had fun trying!).

But - the main thing is to PLAY MUSIC. Do it however you can. With or without paper. Just PLAY MUSIC!!! :smiley:


Missy

10

I am with FJohnSharp as well. Standard notation can be helpful for learning tunes, especially if you can sight-sing and have decent relative pitch. If you plan to be a trad player, learn ABC notation as well. There are many more trad tunes written in ABC format on the Internet than there are in standard notation.

Another must for your gig bag is a decent guitar tuner (they work with whistles, too). Set it to tune the G string, then blow a note with three fingers down. If it comes close, you have a D whistle. If it comes closer with two fingers down, you have a C whistle. Four fingers down, you have an Eb.

Also, don’t try to play along with the whistles on trad albums until you get REALLY good, or it will be discouraging. Instead, start out playing along with early music like O’Carolan and Dowland, or even rock and pop tunes, some of which have surprisingly good whistle/flute/fife/recorder playing.

11

To this and other posts, starting with FSharp’s: I don’t think the question was: Is the ability to read sheet music helpful (in ITM)?

  1. I’ve come to see that reading and relying on musical notation is a real hindrance. I think relying on notation feeds my need to process the music in my brain, rather than to “get” it in my body. But if I try to figure out a tune by ear, I just feel stuck. When I hear a note, I’m not even close to being able to identify it. I can use trial and error, but that feels cumbersome and like I’m not learning anything. Any suggestions for how to wean off notation?

So you guys suggest that a good way to wean yourself off notiation is to consider that “notation is a fast way to pick up tunes”?

I say: encourage anything that that gets you around the need to process music in your brain! Good for you. Do not surpress this impulse. I know exactly what you mean, and it’s been the most wonderful part of my learning the whistle as an adult. It’s a thrill when you go straight from the ear to the fingers.

And let’s hear it if anyone here is willing to argue that you need to read music in order to play Irish Traditional Music on the tin whistle.

12

I’ve tried to learn notation, maybe not hard enough, but what I noticed was that everything that’s got to do with whistles, except the notation-learning part, is fun. So I consequently dropped trying to learn reading music and thus learn only by ear. works fine for me, but nonetheless, best is probabely to be able to do both.
:party:

13

This is a good topic. I am a music-reader since that’s how I started playing in grade school/high school band. I can play a lot of tunes because I sight-read fairly well so if I have the music, I can join right in. However, it has definite drawbacks! Often someone will just start a tune in a jam without saying what it is. The tune will be familiar but often I can’t associate it with the song name. If I don’t know the name, I can’t look up the music so, as was mentioned by Missy, I spend most of the tune looking for the music. This can be very frustrating because I want to play, dammit!
The fiddle player in my band learns all his music by ear and has hinted that I should too to have my music memorized. He gets a little impatient when I have to ask him the name of the tune. So pressure’s on. :frowning:
For me, I have found that the music is different depending on how I learn it. There are some songs I have learned just by ear (couldn’t find any notation for it). When I play these, I find I’m not thinking so much about the notes themselves as I am the structure of the tune (describing an abstract process is difficult). This can be dangerous if my mind wanders because if I lose the tune, I can only come back in at certain points. When I’m reading music, although I’m concerned with the musicality, I’m thinking mostly about the notes on the page. And if I’ve been playing a tune using notation, it seems harder to commit to memory than one I just learn by ear. Maybe because I have to go over and over a tune to learn the notes by ear. :roll:

14

To test tuning, if you have a mic, you can download and use this freeware tuner program:
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html

Any mic will do for tuning. Cover all six holes and blow to see what key the whistle is in. If the note is a D then it is a D whistle.

If you need reference frequencies, here is one source:
http://ashleys.net/music/notefreq.htm

As for learning, some people do better with sheet music, some do better by ear. For some group settings one or the other is preferable. In sessions–learning by ear, in a church band–sheet music. If you are not tied to playing in groups, either one or both is fine. Go with what works best for you. In general, the more you play and listen, the more you will progress. Whatever road you choose, remember to have fun.

  • Bill
15

From Bloomfield
So you guys suggest that a good way to wean yourself off notiation is to consider that “notation is a fast way to pick up tunes”?

I say: encourage anything that that gets you around the need to process music in your brain! Good for you. Do not surpress this impulse. I know exactly what you mean, and it’s been the most wonderful part of my learning the whistle as an adult. It’s a thrill when you go straight from the ear to the fingers.

I can see how you thought this. I was mainly responding to what I see as people seemingly nudging people to give up the sheet music.

And let’s hear it if anyone here is willing to argue that you > need > to read music in order to play Irish Traditional Music on the tin whistle.

HA! Not me. The finest players of all time learned by ear. I wish I could.

My point was to make people who WANT to use music feel good about themselves. I often get the feeling that the music readers are sort of looked down on a little.

I’m okay, you’re okay.

Okay, enough channeling Dr. Phil.

16

That’s fine, of course, as long as we are clear that you were responding to something “seeming” and the exact opposite of what bmerberg asked about.

My point was to make people who WANT to use music feel good about themselves. I often get the feeling that the music readers are sort of looked down on a little.

I think feeling good about what you do is always a great thing, whether or not what you do works. :wink:

17

Keep in mind there are sites like www.cyberhymnal.org with MIDI files where you can learn church music by ear, so ear-players need not be excluded from church bands. However, it would still help to familiarize yourself with key signatures so you will know which whistle to grab before the playing starts.

18

And this is fine as long as we are clear that it’s pretty much not important whether you think I responded to the question in an appropriate way.

I think feeling good about what you do is always a great thing, whether or not what you do works. > :wink:

And I think taking cheap shots when you know nothing of what you speak is the height of arrogance.

:wink:

19

I thank everyone who responded for your insightful comments. It does help give me direction. And the support is very motivating, too! I have to admit that some of the responses raised some questions for me, too–but I guess that’s inevitable.

Also, I used the Tuner app and it worked great (thx, Bill!). Apparently, I do have a D whistle. Now I need to come up with some other excuse for why my high notes sound so loud and shrill. :frowning:

Thanks, again, everyone. I look forward to further participation in this Forum.

Bob

20

I admit to the cheap shot. I don’t buy the arrogance, and I don’t have to since that’s just a cheap shot on your part. :wink:

Seriously though, these debates suffer from one side or the other just wanting to validate the approach they have chosen.

bmerberg, don’t let this sort of banter distract you, and keep asking your questions. :slight_smile: