Moral Support Needed

Irish Flute
41

Most if not all Boehm flute players trying Irish music are classical players making the switch. As such, they already know their way around the instrument and can play as fast as you’d like, straightaway. But they have no feel for the music, so they’re playing strings of fast notes rather than dance tunes. It may be music, it may be flashy, but it’s not Irish dance music.

I hear that–There are a couple albums of James Galway playing Irish music, and tho’ he tries it’s really not the same, however a great flute player he is.

I came from classical and jazz, and tho’ the combinations of notes are often similar and the familiarity helps, the feel is completely different.

caitlin

42

Thank you John, I’m blushing furiously! Seriously though, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. It is the ‘swing’, and this stuff is, at its heart, dance music. Everything else is the icing.

As a classically-trained Boehmer myself, I’ve often wondered whether it would be easier to do this had I been a raw beginner. Uninfected, if you will. And after 10 years fooling with Irish music – the last 5 or so with an actual wooden flute – I still can’t say one way or the other. But being able to play all the notes at session speed right off, being able to cruise along in our band, etc. ultimately let me fake it for a very long time – and be lazy as far as getting any more real with it, too.

(But you know, I guess even the audience somehow sensed this inauthenticity – they never responded to my playing the way they’ve done lately, even though I used to just FLY, all sound & fury & technique & cheek … or maybe fear of my own lameness and what it would take to fix it?)

And re: wooden flutes. For me, I did not open the Ormiston’s box the week before all our St. Pat’s gigs and get ‘instant Irish’ (I’d sure expected to … and must admit I’m still seduced by this dream with other flutes). Heck, it’s only been the last year or so – since I started the off-and-on lessons that got me really immersing myself in this – that these stupid sticks are starting to sound even vaguely proper. (But I can make them sound surprisingly Boehm-like :slight_smile: )

So I guess in my case it hasn’t been the flute. It hasn’t been the casual listening. It hasn’t been the ornamentation, or variation, or improvisation, or technique, or being able to play insanely fast (:oops: oh, how I rue that phase) – it’s been, like my Most Esteemed Teacher (I’m starting to want to call him Sensei) says, total immersion in practice and sessions and listening and playing and …

So I think the rule’s still the same: play what you have, and play your fingers off. Listen, listen, listen. Learn, learn, learn. Try to understand where the music came from, why it is the way it is, and then honor that as best you can.

That, to me, that’s what defines authentic.

But dang. It’s amazing how much work it takes to make things sound effortless.

:slight_smile:

Thanks again, John. You made my day.
And good luck, Caitlin! Welcome to the journey.

43

I can’t play the flute but I love to listen. I wouldn’t know 10 tunes if I heard them. I do know some pipers/flutest sometime play the first tunes they learned, simple, easy, slow tunes that sound great. I’d swap with you in a min. if I could just play one tune.

44

Caitlin,

I found this article on the 'net, which I think is very apropros your current discomfort.

I found it fascinating reading anyway, and probably of interest to all flautists:

“What is an Irish Flute?”

http://www.standingstones.com/irflute.html

http://www.standingstones.com/irflute1b.html

Hope this helps!

45

I too play the metal Boehm style flute and am classically trained (play jazz too), but want to play in as many folk styles as I can. I may never acquire an “authentic” ITM sound, but here is my plan:

  1. Learn as much as I can by listening to recordings and live performances. Learn from sheet music and books such as Grey Larsen’s.

  2. Get a decent wood head joint (not a modern cut, but more like Chris Abell’s oval, or Full Circle’s Louis Lot) to put on my metal flute.

  3. Try to play with good musicians always. Keep a good rhythmic pulse–never drop the beat to catch a note.

I can read music in all keys fluently, and the Boehm system flute makes it easier. This allows me to concentrate on rhythm, style and sound–not the full, classical sound, but something more earthy and reedy.

Then, we’ll see. Maybe what I will be working toward is my own person fusion of styles. If people want to roll their eyes, that is their problem. :slight_smile:

As Miles Davis said: There are only two kinds of music–good music and bad music.

Best wishes, Elizabeth

46

Hello all. Hope everyone’s well.
Nice to be back after a long hiatus.
Anyway, regarding this thread I can safely say that the playing of Paddy Carty (aka “The Flow”) is one of the best testaments to simple, beautiful phrasing, light ornamentation …all on a Radcliffe system flute (looks like a boehm to the untrained eye, so who cares). Caitlin, if you look for one of Carty’s recordings (which I’ve been listening to a lot lately, just to pick up on the phrasings) you’ll get a great feel…as well as a confidence boost that simple is often better.
Perform to enjoy and entertain…not to impress.

Dave Migoya

47

Welcome back, David.

Good to see you here.

–James

48

Missed ya, fella.

49

Hello, David. I apologize for whatever I did that you think merited such anger from you. Perhaps we were both holding onto old stuff about each other and we were both having a bad day. It’s ok for people not to love each other, but I will certainly not get into any more arguments with you and I hope you will agree to do (avoid) the same. I want good energy now, not bad energy, in my life and I wish the same for you and everyone else.

Let it be stated for the record that, even though his only post was in support of you, I do not believe that you are connected to the guy who threatened me and my unborn child with serious trouble. Perhaps there are some other crazy people who agreed with me, too, as well as sane people who agreed with each of us. Anyway, back to good stuff, if it’s all the same to you.

I would like to add something on topic to this thread, which I have been following. I will just say that I like to play both simple system AND Boehm flutes. I guess I prefer simple system flutes for faster stuff and Boehm flutes for slower stuff. I tend to play with less ornamentation than most, though I do use plenty of cuts and rolls. My favorite thing about the style of Irish music is the variation of volume and emphasis on different beats. It’s fun to play with. By the way, I am not classically trained, and I started on Irish and Boehm flutes at about the same time. I do prefer wood over metal.

50

I’m happy to see you’re BOTH back!

Mary

51

So, who brought the marshmellows?

52

glad to be back
let’s see how long it lasts

53

Welcome back Dave!

I also agree 100% with your response to Caitlin - especially the last bit “Perform to enjoy and entertain…not to impress.”

Eric

54

David,

Welcome back. Since you mentioned it, what are some of the details of the Radcliffe system? I know it has keywork similar to the Boehm sys., enabling all those Galway key changes. But doesn’t it also have open holes enabling it to be played in the manner of a simple system flute, or am I mistaken?

Corin

55

Basically described, it is a Boehm-like system (using rods and springs) that allows for the “old fingering,” or the fingering of the old 8-key (or derivations thereof) flutes. The idea was perfected by…who else…Pratten…ergo the “Pratten’s Perfected.”

Radcliffe came out with his system and it was popularized in the Irish world by Carty. Why? Because he could flip from the 8-key flute to the fully-keyed model without the brunt of relearning fingerings.
The Pratten models(and there were many varieties from 8-key all the way up) didn’t move far from the long-F and foot key styles. The Radcliffe (and I believe to some degree the Carte models) were closer to Boehm, but still the old fingerings.

They’re not hard to find, but can become pricey…and a failure if you don’t find a good one (like any flute, I guess). Best were likely the Rudall-Cartes of the day. I know Robert Bigio loves locating the Radcliffe-Rudall models as they play pretty well.

The ornaments come out pretty nice, if Carty is any indication. Some not so well as the 8-key because of the key limitations, but they weren’t designed specifically for Irish music. That’s why Carty is so much fun to listen to…he devises his own methods.

I meant to add…the Radcliffe flutes don’t use open holes. Some of the early Prattens do. In fact, there is one on eBay right now, which should give a good visual for you.

Dave M

56

Ok, that answers that question. I always loved Paddy Carty’s playing, now my respect is moved to a new level.

Corin

57

Try this for Radcliff inffo:
http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/radcliff.htm

58

Thanks Glauber,

Now I’m wondering if there are any other ITM players (past or present) that used these. I’d imagine that some other Galway players might have used them, either from Carty’s influence, or the fact that changing the keys of tunes was supposedly popular there. Mike Rafferty played a metal Boehm flute for many years, but he said it was only because his wood flute was damaged beyond repair. He also mentioned that Good wood flutes were hard to come by at that point (he’s played an Olwell now for some years).

Corin

59

I don’t have my Grey Larsen ‘Essential Guide’ at hand but I remember him mentioning Josie McDermott playing a Radcliffe. He was one of Catherine McEvoy’s big Sligo influences.

Cheers,
Aaron

60

hmm,

McDermott’s playing style doesn’t really suggest the use of keys. Very rhythmic, apparently most Sligo players were disdainful of keys. On the cover of the Darby’s Farewell album, it looks like a simple system flute. But…it’s entirely possible that he ended up having to use whatever was handy at the time. He did also play the sax, so he probably was reasonably comfortable with keyed instruments.

Corin