This might be a stupid set of questions, but here goes anyway…
I am a big believer in learning things (and improving things) by going slowly. And I have had some success with this with some aspects of my playing, especially learning tunes with difficult sections, etc. With other things, though, (such as playing crans) it seems as if going slowly doesn’t train the muscles in the right way. In other words, it at least seems to me that playing a section of a tune slowly is the same as playing it fast, just slower–as far as what is going on physiologically is concerned. Whereas, playing a cran really slowly involves something different physiologically than the sort of flicking or twitching of the fingers involved in playing a cran at normal speed. And I learned to play the few crans I do play by playing them over and over at speed until I was flicking them in the right way. (I realize flick is not quite the right word. I am just using it to refer to the lifting and setting down really quickly.) Maybe that was a mistake but that’s how I learned them, and the reason I did is this belief I have about the physiological differences.
So my questions are these, and I put them primarily to better players who have more experience:
First, does what I described above, concerning the physiological differences between playing fast and playing something like a cran, seem right to anyone else? Does anyone have a similar intuition about this?
Second, (and here is where my real interest lies) when it comes to getting consistent a and b rolls, has anyone had success in perfecting those by playing slowly and building up speed over time? Or is it better to learn those, like crans, by playing them up to speed from the get-go (or close to up to speed)?
Thanks for whatever thoughtful responses you might have. I am sure that there are many players on the boards who, like me, would be happy for any advice from more advanced players about making how to make their a and b rolls more consistent.
The validity of this statement is called into question by the fact that you chose to shout the word shout. You’re playing a deep game.
Also, yes. I think a and b rolls respond very well to playing slowly at first, and mine have improved greatly by slowly and deliberately doing them again and again.
I have the same question. For the most part, ‘practice slow to play fast’ seems to work for me; usually I can play whatever it is faster the next day.
However, there was a discussion somewhere about a well-known fiddler’s advice to practice new tunes at full playing speed. The consensus seemed to be that it was to do with the way that bows worked on strings (physics, I suppose) rather than something physiological. I don’t know if that would apply to air venting through holes. I suspect not and that for us it is a matter of neuro-muscular control.
Anyhow, at the moment I am working on the basis that practicing - for some of the time - at a speed where something is not working quite the way it should is not going to do much damage so long as it is getting better each time round and nothing else is getting worse.
When i was taking lessons with Shannon Heaton she would play the tune for each week slow to teach us and she never slowed crans down proportional to the speed of the tune as you might hear if you slowed down a fast tune using a program or an app. She taught us crans at first by having us play them slowly but never emphasized practicing crans that way once we learned to play them up to speed. That said i still sometimes need to play crans slowly but that is only because i still experiment with technique.
So what i took away from listening to Shannon play is that even when playing slow it should sound nice so i usually play a tune slowly to learn and practice it but add in ornamentation at a speed that keeps the tune sounding listenable.
as for A and B rolls i still have to play them slow sometimes, particularly when practicing reels because my ADD personality wants to do everything as fast as possible and i can easily loose the emphasis on a roll that way. Not such a problem on jigs where the rolls tend to be shorter. So i would play a roll slowly before i would play a cran or a cut slowly if that makes sense.
I’m not an experienced player but i am in the thick of learning it and so i hope this helps.
a well-known fiddler’s advice [was] to practice new tunes at full playing speed. – Begging to differ. Seamus Creagh (RIP), another well-known fiddler, told me years ago that there is no such thing as practicing too slowly. Sessions are generally filled with people who play too fast for their level of accomplishment. And pray tell, what is “full playing speed?” The point is to play well and to make lovely music, not to play fast and fumble.
even when playing slow it should sound nice – I don’t understand the “even.” The music should always sound nice. Else what’s the point?
A teacher of violin suggested this technique: practise small groups of notes at speed, with pauses between them. For example, play two notes quickly, pause, next two notes quickly, pause, etc. Repeat with different grouping of notes.
Applied to ornaments, this would suggest playing the notes slowly, but moving the fingers quickly; or practising one quick finger movement, pause, next quick finger movement, pause, etc.
a well-known fiddler’s advice [was] to practice new tunes at full playing speed. – Begging to differ. Seamus Creagh (RIP), another well-known fiddler, told me years ago that there is no such thing as practicing too slowly. Sessions are generally filled with people who play too fast for their level of accomplishment. And pray tell, what is “full playing speed?” The point is to play well and to make lovely music, not to play fast and fumble.
even when playing slow it should sound nice – I don’t understand the “even.” The music should always sound nice. Else what’s the point?
That’s what i meant. I was inferring which is i guess not a good idea here. What i should have said was, when learning a tune, even when playing slowly, alone, it should sound nice. Or just scratch out the “even”
As for “full playing speed” i agree that there is no such a thing Julia but for me that is an inferred phrase that i don’t have a problem with. i take it as a combination of the tempo i feel the tune sounds best at and the speed with which they play the tune at my local session. This varies of course from place to place, person to person but i think that most people would understand what the OP was saying and i don’t think stomping on the phrase will help them resolve the question in any way.
We were talking about practice, not the speed of the tune as played at the session. That is totally irrelevant to practice speed. I play everything slowly on my own until I am comfortable with the phrase or the ornament. I zero in on parts that give me trouble and play those alone, like exercises, until I can work them into the tune without distorting the rhythm or changing the tempo in mid-flight.
As someone who regularly plays for dancers - which to me is the original living point of this whole business - I’m always bemused by that too. Also odd to me is the similar phrase “at speed”. But what does that really mean? Sure, I can play too fast for dancers, but does that mean I’ve settled for something less worthy when I accommodate their needs?
Perhaps it’s become clear at this point that I have a very functional approach in how I think about this. I think people should remember why they do things. Nowadays, this music has a new attendant function of performance simply as an artistic artifact, dance no longer having anything to do with it in that case. Which is perfectly fine, and I suspect this development is probably what gave impetus to such ideas as speed being a goal in itself because it’s a great crowd-pleaser and exciting when a superb player makes it work, but I personally avoid invoking vague terms like “at speed”, because 1) neither I nor anyone else can explain in any universal way what that really means, and 2) “at speed” sounds like an instituted concept with pedigree. But it’s not. It’s just a recent buzzword.
To be honest, speed is fine in my book, so long as the tune remains intact and that speed gives something extra to the tune by making it delightful. That’s not my issue, here. The problem in referring to speed as an absolute lies in the fact that someone will always be faster - or slower. As Julia suggested, I agree that whatever speed you play at, make the tune sprightly. If you get people tapping their feet and smiling, then you are absolutely doing your job.
Yes, but it still exists. For me the the most important “at speed” is the speed everyone at the local session likes to play the tune at…so i can play with them. I have good friends that play old timey music and they invited me to play in on a set which consisted of one tune played pretty darn fast. I practiced the tune (jimmy in the swamp) well so i was able to keep up but i had to switch to my M&E R&R.
Before letting me play i was warned that i had to play fast. So that was the “at speed” for that group of musicians.
Okay, I see what you mean. And I agree that we could get back on topic.
I tend to think that practicing slowly (not only to build up the ease, and therefore a habit, of physical response, but particularly to get the timing right) is never a wrong idea, especially if it’s a matter of specific details you’re having difficulties with. Consider my own case as a cautionary example: proper A and B rolls have always been something I “faked” with approximate fingerings because I didn’t work the real thing out patiently, wanting to just get 'er done when playing “at speed” ( ), and I’m still struggling with doing them the right way now that the less desirable habit is ingrained. It doesn’t matter that what I do fits the job acceptably enough; I think it would be better if I had the basics down for those in a right fashion, first. But there’s still hope, even for me. It’s just a matter of developing a new habit.
It was me who introduced “full playing speed” to the discussion. Whatever term the “well-known fiddler” actually used I took it to mean “at the tempo one intended to play in performance or when playing with others in a session” - was that so hard to work out ?
I was not repeating the fiddlers advice. I was merely passing on that some people hold the view that because of the way that some instruments generate sound some things are best worked on at the tempo they are intended to be played at.
I was asking if that may also apply to flute. The relationship between practice tempo and physiological factors is probably a separate issue.
I think it’s best to cross reference advice no matter where it’s came from. Sometimes players that learned their instruments a long time ago can lose sight of what it’s like being a beginner. Having played my main instruments for many years I’ve found that learning the flute lately has taught me a lot about actual learning and some things I thought the past I would see differently now.
When it comes to playing fast I would say it’s more about the phrasing, often good players are playing faster than it sounds because of the space they create in the music. Playing at the speed you’re comfortable with is much more beneficial than trying to play at the speed of faster sessions if you’re not ready for that.
Crans and rolls are best learned slowly in my opinion.
I’d also suggest practicing ornaments slowly to get them right regardless of whether you are talking about rolls, crans, triplets, etc. In addition to getting the technique right, playing them slowly will make you focus on getting the rhythm of the ornament correctly. From my point of view, if you can’t play something slowly, you can’t play it fast. Particularly for crans, a lot of people just try to squeeze them in and the nice rhythmic quality is lost. The other upside of having that kind of control over your ornaments is that you can use them to compliment the tune and you’re not just stuck with muscle memory.
), and I’m still struggling with doing them the right way now that the less desirable habit is ingrained. It doesn’t matter that what I do fits the job acceptably enough; I think it would be better if I had the basics down for those in a right fashion, first. But there’s still hope, even for me. It’s just a matter of developing a new habit. 