Hi all,
I own a chanter with ivory rings on it and my band will be on our first US tour this summer. Could it be I run into problems when travelling to the US? Will I have to prove I’m not going to sell the instrument? Any thoughts/experiences?
Thanks!
Claus
Thanks Carol!
Hi Claus,
you might want to contact the US CBP and ask them about it. They say on their homepage that you need a permission from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to “import virtually all types of ivory, unless it is from a warthog”. I don’t know if they consider it to be a “commercial” import when just visiting the country. In either case you should take your CITES documents (which Andreas should have handed you out with the chanter) with you, as Uilliam noted in the linked thread.
Best,
Steffen
Those documents from Andreas are NOT CITES DOCUMENTS. CITES permist can only be issued by a CITES issuing authority in the country of import/export and must be arranged well in advance.
However the procedure in the US seems to have changed in the past couple of years - there is now an exemption for bagpipe mounts when they travel with you as personal effects. You will of course need documentation as to the source of the ivory and when the instrument was purchased, but you should no longer need a CITES permit in order to enter the US.
Some countries still require CITES permits when leaving the country or re-entering with ivory-mounted bagpipes as personal effects, so you should check with your ‘local’ fish and game/customs authorities also.
Bill
Good to know that. I just thought they are since he writes it here.
I think human bone is the new trend. I’m not sure about the rules for transporting it, but it looks like some guys got into trouble doing it:
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSDEL10463220070619?feedType=RSS
One thing about ivory and his ‘CITES certificate’ - it is NOT possible for him to legally export any pipes containing newly worked ivory, even if that ivory has some sort of previous CITES paperwork, There seems to be considerable misunderstanding about that, but since he is located in Germany he can only legally sell pipes with elephant ivory on them within Germany (he cannot sell them overseas, legally, unless the pipes themselves are antiques over 100 years old). Such export is considered “commercial trade” and is not allowed for elephant ivory under current CITES regulations. If you follow the link he posts, to cites.org, and read carefully, you will find this to be true. Lastly, CITES permits are “single use” and must be obtained anew for each border crossing. This is probably why the US has established this exception for bagpipe mounts - too much paperwork otherwise!
(Of course for mammoth ivory there is no such problem)
Bill
Okay, thanks for pointing that out Bill. 
Thanks everybody, interesting stuff… I guess I just take make plastic chanter with me.
onkel, reading the link I provided about the bagpipe exemption. It should be OK to take the ivory mounted pipes, without a CITES permit, as long as they meet the requirements in the exemption (note that the ivory on your set is almost certainly African Elephant ivory, not ivory from the rarer Asian Elephant). Note that you need to check with your local Fish and Wildlife authority to make sure they have a similar exemption for export, and it wouldn’t hurt to contact the US Fish and Wildlife department to make sure that the terms below apply to visitors to the USA as well as US Citizens travelling abroad…
I think you take your life into your hands trying to bring any elephant ivory across the US border. I lived in Canada for a year and got my elephant-ivory-mounted highland pipes into and out of Canada only because I didn’t get checked.
Supposedly, CBP agents are skilled in determining if ivory is elephant or mammoth. Or walrus. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I would bet that Fish and Game Service personnel know the difference (or know they can look it up), but I would say that if you can avoid it, don’t cross the border with ivory.
I find it fascinating that we (in the US) have specific exemptions to make bagpipes totally duty-free, AND to allow ivory on bagpipes carried as personal effects. I wonder if there’s a member of Congress who’s a piper who makes sure that stuff is on the books.
Stuart
It would be so much easier to just have a pipemaker make new mounts out of faux ivory and save you the hassle. Adore your ivory mounts in the safety of your own home, but for the road, use the imitation stuff.
djm
I really think that the concern is over stated. People like Liam O’Flynn and others travel accross borders all the time with their pipes, and customs doesn’t know Liam and others from Joe Blow. I have carried mine across twice and haven’t had any issues. Does anyone actually know of someone who has had a set confiscated? Second hand stories of whearing from someone that knew someone whos neighbor’s sisters nephew who had them confisated don’t count.
Neil
I must respectfully disagree with this. I’ve never had anyone from Customs in the US, UK, or Canada stop me and look at what I’m brining in.
Bringing ivory across a border is illegal unless you can prove that the ivory, under CITES, was legally obtained. It’s not easy to get the certificates (I know first hand from trying). The question is not whether or not any customs offcials know you, but whether or not they look. Because if they do, it could cause trouble.
I’d actually be interested in knowing how many people have ever been stopped and had their pipes inspected. I’ve never had that happen. If they don’t look, it doesn’t matter what you bring across a border, but if they DO happen to look . . . it could be as light as a confiscation or as heavy as confiscation + a huge fine.
I can say that Irish Customs, via the post, did hold my Wooff pipes when I sent a piece back to Geoff for inspection. They had them for close to a month before being convinced it was mammoth ivory and therefore OK.
Stuart
I do not debate the illegality of transporting ivory accross the border, as that is perfectly clear and unanimous among all here that a risk exists. Getting a CITES certificate is near impossible for an old set. I only state that confiscation is very very rare. I mention Liam only because he, as an example, is likely to cross the border with ivory and without cites certificates more frequently than most of us here. Given the regular traveling that I presume he does, and that his pipes appear to have the ivory in tact, it is a useful example. Most security checks and examinations are done for the purpose of air safety, and I have had my pipes checked to ensure that it wasn’t a weapon or gatlin gun or something, but the case was quickly closed when it was viewed as clearly a musical instrument (even though not usually one seen before). As for shipping a package, you are likely to have that package held for duty and examined directly by customs more rigorously than if you carry them accross. It just makes sense that shipping would pose less risk to a “bad person” trying to do “bad things” than carrying said “bad goods”. In fact, I faced significant scrutiny on a set of pipes that I had shipped to me. They were held in customs for two weeks even though they were sent fedex. Fortunately, while the package was xrayed, it wasn’t opened or disturbed, and so it arrived safely. I had to pay $260 in duty though.
In conclusion, despite the existence of a risk, in my opinion, it is low, and requests for producing cites certificates is rare. I will feel differently when I meet someone that had a different experience.
Neil
Why do you say that (about getting a CITES certificate)? I have gotten CITES permits for a set made in 1989, using pre-convention ivory - all I needed was a letter verifying the source of the ivory, and even so, all the verification that was required was a letter from a third party attesting this. The pipemaker himself was deceased in this case, so I could not even produce documentation from the pipemaker as to the source of the ivory… it seemed tedious in that I had to write a couple of letters, but it did not seem difficult.
There have been reports - first or second-hand, at least, on this very forum regarding ivory confiscations. IIRC, mostly over the Canada-US border.
I do know for certain that Fish&Wildlife and Customs agents are now trained to look for ivory including bits on instruments. Most inspections are, as you say, carried out by TSA instead, but if Customs looks in your bag they are trained to spot ivory. Fortunately the new ‘exception’ for bagpipes may reduce the risk that they stop and ask for details.
There’s so much misinformation about this topic that I hate to see it added to. To clarify, in case someone was confused by your comments about legality - It is NO LONGER illegal to cross the border with bagpipes that have ivory mounts without a CITES permit, at least not the US border - for noncommercial purposes. What is illegal is to transport ivory across borders for commercial purposes, i.e. subsequent to sale, etc. (This would include purchasing a set of ivory mounted pipes somewhere other than your country of normal residence, and attempting to take said set home - that is indeed illegal).
best regards,
Bill
Bill,
I find your comments very encouraging and interesting. Could you provide more color/details regarding how you attained your CITES certificate for pipes made by a deceased pipemaker? I have a set made in around 1969-70. The maker is deceased. I am sure that I can get another pipe maker to attest to when at least the minimum age of the set and the ivory. Also, I am unaware of a change in the law regarding carrying bagpipes into the US. That is good news, and would give me even more comfort. I was always more nervous about coming into the US as compared to into Ireland, and apparently that should no longer be an issue as a musician carrying my own personal set?? Please correct me if I have missed something.
Thanks.
Neil
No, you’re correct. Fish and Wildlife, as mentioned on the site above, allows you to carry pipes with ANY elephant ivory across the US border if they’re your own pipes. (Asian ivory is trickier; how many pipes are mounted with Asian ivory, I wonder?)
That says nothing about the other country. How do Ireland and the UK treat ivory?
Stuart
I hadn’t considered there might be so much buracracy involved with travelling with ivory mounted pipes. I’m travelling to the Mahamilana in France in September, and the French family asked me to bring my pipes; this specifically means my 1966 R.G. Hardie Nickel/Ivory half-mounted GHB (my UP has no ivory, so that’s “no worries, mate”).
I hadn’t any idea about any papers, other than composing my own declaration on these pipes:
"Declaration of Personal Property
The property described herein is the personal property of John P. Meshkoff, II, currently residing at [current address given]
Description: One (1) set of Great Highland Bagpipes (GHB), manufactured in or about 1965 - 1966 by the late R.G. Hardie, of Glasgow, Scotland, and lawfully imported by myself into the United States of America, via the College of Piping, 20 Otago St, Glasgow, Scotland, under the United States customs laws in force at the time. A duty was paid by myself on this import when received at the United States Post Office, in Rochester N.Y. where I did then reside, around October or November of 1966. I am making this declaration as I will be attending the family reunion being hosted at Le Pescadou in France in September of 2007, and and intend to bring the personal property described herein with me while traveling outside of, and returning with said property to, the United States of America.
Identification:
Marks Makers mark on chanter near knob end: R G Hardie Glasgow
Wear diagonal wear on lowest finger hole of chanter, on the player’s right-hand side.
Damage Crack along bass-drone stock, re-inforced with black-waxed shoemakers thread near bag end.
Dress Sewn leather bag, wollen cover, woolen cords.
Pattern African-Blackwood, half-mounted with nickel-silver ferrules and real ivory rings, projecting mounts and chanter sole-plate. Traditional Scottish-style combing and beading on drones.
Reeds Artificial drone reeds, cane chanter reed.
Declared by John P. Meshkoff, II
Signature _______________________________________________
Witnessed by me on ____________________________20
Signature of Witness ______________________________________
"
Would the above likely be useful in the context of this discussion? Any other papers I really should have for travelling?
Thanks, John