Well, I’ve been thinking a whole lot about the different approaches to learning/teaching/playing Irish music, and I’ve come up with a few of my own ideas.
I think that developing your aural skills is very important, not only for Irish music, but for all music. You become a better musician when you have a better ear.
However, I think that for those who don’t have very good aural skills (or those who have none at all…), it is ok for them to learn from sheet music, and in some cases, it’s better for them to learn from sheet music- But it’s important for them to remember that THE WRITTEN NOTATION OF THE TUNE IS NOT SET IN STONE. You are not obligated to play the tune EXACTLY as it’s written- you are actually supposed to take a tune and “make it your own,” with regard to “traditional” parameters.
In addition, I think that listening to how different players play a particular tune is important, simply because you can A) get ideas of how to play the tune yourself, and B) to see how they contrast or are similar stylistically- to see the “guts” of the music and how it is decorated, so to speak.
Ok, I suppose I’m looking for feedback on this, so what do you all think?
~Quellecristiel/Heather
‘Go not to the Elves for counsil, for they will say both no and yes…’ Especially when concerning WhOA!
[ This Message was edited by: The Whistling Elf on 2002-12-02 15:23 ]
I think that developing your aural skills is very important, not only for Irish music, but for all music. You become a better musician when you have a better ear.
However, I think that for those who don’t have very good aural skills (or those who have none at all…), it is ok for them to learn from sheet music, and in some cases, it’s better for them to learn from sheet music-
It’s flat out impossible to learn to play this music by sheet music alone. Either you go to a lot of sessions, get a teacher, or listen a lot. A piece of paper simply doesn’t accurately represent the music outside of note pitches.
But it’s important for them to remember that THE WRITTEN NOTATION OF THE TUNE IS NOT SET IN STONE. You are not obligated to play the tune EXACTLY as it’s written- you are actually supposed to take a tune and “make it your own,” with regard to “traditional” parameters.
You miss the point of why Irish musicians(and not just ‘pure drop’ folks) have a bone to pick with sheet music. It’s not a matter of sheet music being too rigid; it is the fact that sheet music is not music. It represents note pitches, and that is all; it cannot show how bits and pieces of tunes are to be dug into, how they are to be articulated(swing, dynamics, harmonics, ornamentation, bowing on fiddle/breathing on winds etc.). An experienced musician who is already versed in such things can take a tune from paper and know where to use those things, and what some good phrasing might be. A beginner cannot, unless he has an inborn talent with the music, or has already been listening to it a long time.
In addition, I think that listening to how different players play a particular tune is important, simply because you can A) get ideas of how to play the tune yourself, and B) to see how they contrast or are similar stylistically- to see the “guts” of the music and how it is decorated, so to speak.
I agree with this, especially B. Observing contrast’s between different musician’s styles can provide great insight into the music.
I think that, for trad, sometimes theory can act as a deterrent. I’m teaching an 11-yr-old who started tin whistle in October. He had never done any music before. As of today, he can play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Row Row Row Your Boat, Seamaisin (polka), another polka, and half of My Darling Asleep (jig). He has been learning purely by ear, although I also notate the tunes for him (just letter names). I feel that, had I begun with the basics of music theory/stave notation, he would probably have been swamped. As it is, he has a really excellent ear for music (this week, I put Jingle Bells on a tape for him to work out on his own, and a couple of weeks ago he was able to play Row Row Row as a round with me - he was better at it!), and I can incorporate some details of music notation and theory into his aural lessons. Example: I’ve been doing the tunes aurally one bar at a time; this week, he pointed out that the phrases didn’t coincide with the bar-lines. Had I been teaching him from notation, I think he might have been too focused on that to recognise the discrepancy. I think aurally is the way to go, especially for beginners. Whistle is nice and straightforward - why confuse the issue unnecessarily?
Deirdre
Well, if a person has no aural skills at all, like they can’t tell if one note is pitched higher or lower than another, they have a serious obstacle to learning any music. At that point, it’s sheet music or nothing. I’m betting people like that don’t get too far due to frustration. I wouldn’t be the judge of who’s got an ear and who doesn’t. I’d certainly want the person to try to learn to “hear better.” I’d suggest humming or lilting a tune to get a feel for the rhythm, etc. If they can do that, they stand a reasonable chance of learning an instrument. If they can’t get that far, I just don’t know. At least they’ll have only wasted a couple of bucks on a whistle (and a lot more on lessons).
Tony
In response to Tony’s comments, when I started music, I had NO aural skills at all. I am not kidding. I was as tone-deaf as they come. But when I learned how to sight-read sheet music and notation, it helped me tremendously. I now have very good pitch (although I still am unable to play by ear well), and that is due to learning the note’s relationships to one another.
I personally think (and perhaps this was unclear in the afore said post) that sheet music should be used as a tool to help you learn, but should not be used to the point of exclusion of listening. Listening to advanced players is very, VERY important, but when you cannot play by ear, how else are you going to learn to play this music? I know from personal experience that you have to learn the note relationships before you can learn to recognize specific pitches in a phrase, and once you learn that basis, developing your aural skills (ie. playing by ear) becomes much, much easier to do.
~Quellecristiel/Heather
‘Go not to the Elves for counsil, for they will say both no and yes…’ Especially when concerning WhOA!
[ This Message was edited by: The Whistling Elf on 2002-12-02 21:17 ]
I sorta agree with you - to a degree. I agree that sheet music can be a big help in acquiring tunes, but the problem (as far as I see it) is that the sheet music only shows you the succession of notes - and actually (as you note) - only one set of all the possible sets of notes making up the tune. What the sheet does not tell you, is what the music actually sounds like; like which notes to generally emphasize, how much “swing” to put into the tune, for the whistle which notes to slur, etc.
My point is, in order to play a tune from the sheet music and actually make it sound right, you have to have a very good sense of how the music sounds, which includes some quite intricate stuff. And the only way to get this sense of the music, is by listening to it - lots of it! In addition to listening, players learning the music are greatly helped by having some kind of tuition, as having a teacher point out those noteworthy details will greatly speed up the learning process.
Now, I am not against sheet music; I definitely don’t belong in the camp that thinks that sheet music is something to stay away from at all costs. But one has to remember that sheet music is only an abstract representation of the music, not the real thing. It can not stand on its own.
My 2 ører…
Jens
(edited to add the following)
PS: I see that in your subsequent post you actually say much the same as what I’ve just posted. Good thing.
[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2002-12-03 03:50 ]
(Considered post this under an alias to avoid stigma… ) I use sheet music, but ONLY to learn notes or to glance at and remind myself what note comes next when memorizing a tune. I don’t use it for rhythm. When I first took up the whistle I downloaded a bunch of sheet music and had a wonderful time whistling through the tunes - but was quite surprised by the difference in the rhythm when I actually heard the tunes played.
Sheet music has its place.
Susan
Jens Hoppe, and Susan, that’s exactly what I’m getting at; Sheet music is good to learn the ‘melody line’ or the bare-bones of a tune, but in an order to learn how to make it sound like music, you have to do a lot of listening.
Also, memorization is a must IMO, especially if you are intending to play at a session, in a performance, ect.
On 2002-12-02 21:13, The Whistling Elf wrote:
In response to Tony’s comments, when I started music, I had NO aural skills at all. I am not kidding. I was as tone-deaf as they come. But when I learned how to sight-read sheet music and notation, it helped me tremendously. I now have very good pitch (although I still am unable to play by ear well), and that is due to learning the note’s relationships to one another.
I personally think (and perhaps this was unclear in the afore said post) that sheet music should be used as a > tool > to help you learn, but should not be used to the point of exclusion of > listening> . Listening to advanced players is very, VERY important, but when you cannot play by ear, how else are you going to learn to play this music? I know from personal experience that you have to learn the note relationships before you can learn to recognize specific pitches in a phrase, and once you learn that basis, developing your aural skills (ie. playing by ear) becomes much, much easier to do.
~Quellecristiel/Heather
‘Go not to the Elves for counsil, for they will say both no and yes…’ Especially when concerning WhOA!
[ This Message was edited by: The Whistling Elf on 2002-12-02 21:17 ]
Seem you and I have similar talents (or lack of in this department) add a little dyslexia and you have a whopper of a problem. But like any problem it can be overcome by working at it. My approach is thru non traditional approaches. I try learn the same tune on another instrument and that will help. I many times have to glance at the music just to get a tune started and must practice or loose the tune from memory. It is tough dealing with people who have the talent and stare at you in amazement when you do not. I can’t tell you how many times people say “Well just listen to the tune”.
I was as tone-deaf as they come. But when I learned how to sight-read sheet music and notation, it helped me tremendously. I now have very good pitch (although I still am unable to play by ear well), and that is due to learning the note’s relationships to one another…
…but when you cannot play by ear, how else are you going to learn to play this music? I know from personal experience that you have to learn the note relationships before you can learn to recognize specific pitches in a phrase, and once you learn that basis, developing your aural skills (ie. playing by ear) becomes much, much easier to do.
I’m amazed and delighted that this is possible. I had no idea. I would hate to think I never took a shot at learning to play an instrument because I didn’t believe it was possible. The important point you make is that you do what you have to do. I totally agree with this. And, as I’ve said before on this topic, use anything available and make the best of it, and more power to you!
Tony
…my approach to playing is to take my forehead and batter it repeatedly against some bricks located in the wall at my back door…
..then I can get started
On 2002-12-04 18:38, boyd wrote:
…my approach to playing is to take my forehead and batter it repeatedly against some bricks located in the wall at my back door…
..then I can get started
Boyd
I’ll have to try that. It sounds effective. Golly, it means that I’ll finally get something done effeciently!
The end result is what is important.
If when you play, good Irish Trad musicians like what you are doing and want to play with you, then how you got there is irrelevant.
If they complain that you don’t sound “Irish enough” then maybe you need to change your approach to learning Irish Trad Music. Find out how the best Irish Trad players learned and try that.
I believe that the best way to learn this music is the way that works for each individual. There is certainly as many ways to learn something as there are people that post on this message board. There isn’t one best answer, just as there’s not one best whistle.
On 2002-12-07 17:16, jonharl wrote:
I believe that the best way to learn this music is the way that works for each individual. There is certainly as many ways to learn something as there are people that post on this message board. There isn’t one best answer, just as there’s not one best whistle.
On the other hand, if you were lucky enough to have Mary Bergin living next door, then there would only be one logical course of action.
It’s not at all impossible for people who have no “musical ear”!
I started in 1996 and had never touched a musical instrument before (not to mention the flute we were forced to play in the 3rd grade). I learned (mandolin) through sheet music, and as the years went by I’ve developed my skills to play by ear, to hear what is right and what I’m supposed to play. It’s just a matter of practice, practice and more practice. As many of you point out, another important thing is to listen a lot to other musicians. Along with practice, that’s the recipe to be a good musician. Not that I’m a good musician yet, but I’m improving all the time.
Hi, all! I’m new here, and although I’ve been playing trad flute for some years now, I’ve only recently discovered you folks (finally got a computer (!)–yeah, I crawled out from under a rock). Great stuff. Let me say that although flute has been the more natural instrument for me, I also play cittern. Now this is where I’ve needed some theory and coaching. I think we all know how seldom we find really appropriate accompaniment to add that spark and polish to a session (name any gizmo), and sad to say I’ve seen stage acts where all I could do was pity the melody player and wonder how THAT got thrown together; it’s that sort of thing that gives me nightmares about my own accompaniment skills. I don’t really stink but am pretty basic; still, I’ve been asked to perform with others that I respect, and although it’s worked time and again, I need to get to the broadest palette available for tasteful and tasty backup. I’m lucky to have a young guy coaching me from a standpoint of a bit of theory because 1)he’s educated that way, degree and all; 2)has got the chops bigtime on DADGAD guitar(he frequently performs w/ L. Nugent when he’s in Minneapolis); and 3)I could trust him not to let theory get in the way of the goal but rather use it as a pointer and springboard. From there it’s up to yours truly to do the work. For me, if something is more hard-won, fundamental principles are a must. So, yeah, IMHO, sometimes theory is OK as long as it frees you up for the big job (isn’t there a Zen saying about the self-defeating act of “carrying the raft on your back after it already got you across the river”?). BTW, I use DGDAD tuning; last nite while trying to get to know my fretboard better, suddenly all these patterns started revealing themselves in some insanely Pythagorean set of equations…my head was ready to explode (but that might have been the Wild Turkey). I can only recall a bit of all that, but that’s learning, right? Bit by bit; bit by bit. Anyway, cheers, and may we all improve. —N, fumbling for that damned raft
Frankly, I’m flabbergasted, I’m gob-smacked, I’m amazed. We’ve got tone deaf musicans. We’ve got sheet music that doesn’t tell you how a tune should sound.
Get the 1600+ free tunes, get the unrestricted shareware player /editor, slow down, transpose, shift pitch, add backing chords automatically yadda, yadda, yadda.
Get ‘songs’ for kids/learners as they are much easier to remember. Play the .abc files one octave up (put 1 instead of zero in the check box) selecting whistle for melody and acoustic guitar for rythm for best result. If a tune has no rythm track add one automatically in tools to provide tempo.
Download another program to convert to sheet music if you want. All this stuff is at Henrik Norbeck’s Abc Tunes. This guy is a music superhero.
) I use sheet music, but ONLY to learn notes or to glance at and remind myself what note comes next when memorizing a tune. I don’t use it for rhythm. When I first took up the whistle I downloaded a bunch of sheet music and had a wonderful time whistling through the tunes - but was quite surprised by the difference in the rhythm when I actually heard the tunes played.