Thought I’d pose a question for the listmind - how many others find that they play really flat?
Though I love my Burns Folk Flute, despite almost a year’s practice I find that I can not play it up to A:440 Hz pitch - the best I can do is about A:437 Hz with the head all the way in, and I have to work to do that. Playing so that I get the strongest, best-sounding, tone I go even lower - around A:435 or A:436. I know it’s me, not the flute - several other players who tried were able to bring it (just) up to A:440 pitch. It was by following their advice I was able to get it as high as A:437. But even following their advice, my embouchure doesn’t seem to be able to adjust all the way.
It wasn’t until I got my Jon C Rudall that I was able to play along with recordings (I have about 1/8" left on the tuning slide - I can even tune a little sharp, if I want to). It made practicing with CDs or playing with others possible for the first time.
So - anyone else with my problem? And what did you do about it? As long as I have a flute with a tuning slide it’s no longer a major issue, but I like the Burns FF enough I’d love to have the option of playing it with others.
Well, flutes without a slide can be a challenge this way.
Sometimes the maker doesn’t let you go sharp,
and, because the flute is cold or because it’s tuned
flat or because you blow a bit flat, you need to
sharpen and can’t.
There are obvious remedies–roll out the head, blow
out over the head as opposed to down into it.
Another is to ask Casey if he can modify the flute
to let you tune sharp.
At some point there is the option of graceful surrender too.
i’m wondering about the position of the head joint, since you didn’t mention it. the further away the embouchure hole the sharper the note will be. for example, the sound is flatter if the hole is turned in towards you, as opposed to if the hole is lined up with the finger hole or even further away.
not sure if this is an issue in your case, just thought i’d bring it up.
I know someone with a folk flute, and he can’t play it flat enough. He’s always sharp. I really don’t have any good practical advice, since I’ve not had the same problem and overcome it or anything. I think some folks just need tuning slides.
I have played flat all my life. On clarinet, even on tuba. Then on flute.
When I was younger I theorized that my lungs were more efficient than others’, and therefore I was breathing out more CO2, and my breath was heavier. So I experimented by breathing helium (from balloons) and then playing my instrument to see if it made it sharper. It did! But it was much more fun to talk with helium than to play.
Anyhow, I have inexplicably had to begin pushing my tuning slide in for a change. I think something is happening with my embouchure, just because of all the playing I’ve been doing. I’m so used to being flat that this is a real surprise.
So maybe it’s something that may take care of itself, eventually?
It’s been suggested that I roll out the head/blow more across. I’ve been trying to do that (how I got to A:437), but I find that if I roll the head too far out that the tone suffers/disappears.
My normal playing position has the far edge of the embouchure just a little closer than the far side of the 2nd LH finger hole or level with the far side of the 1st LH finger hole. Only one of the players who was able to get up to A:440 had it rolled out much further than that (and the others twitted him about playing like it was a Boehm flute).
If this wasn’t a Folk Flute, I would be asking Casey to adjust it, but considering the low cost he sells these flutes for that seems rather unreasonable - he already designes these to play a little sharp (A:441, according to his web page) with the head in for players with more normal embouchures. I admit to wishing he designed them for A:445 all the way in, though - for me, it’d be just about right. I guess if I can’t adjust my embouchure enough and really want a tunable flute with similar characteristics I could get his ergo standard with a tuning slide.
I think this also means that if I ever want a McGee flute I should avoid the MDT models for pretty much the same reason.
As far as the rolling in/out goes, indeed that’s the best way to make quick adjustment. Another way is to try lifting your chin, almost thrusting it out, when you play. It will tip the flute out and a bit away from your lip. But you have to remember that the flute still has to get some air to make a sound, so as you roll out or tip, there will come a point where you’ll have to aim your airstream down into the flute, and that requires embouchure development. In the interim, you may be able to slide the flute a millimeter or so down your chin and see if that accomplishes a happy medium.
Correcting flute droop is also useful. Although you may see really great players in a session with their flutes at near-45-degree angles as they perhaps play quietly or conserve elbow-room real estate, their lips and lungs and ears are developed enough that they can correct things on the fly… but basically, a flute that is played parallel to the ground is more likely to be in tune. I do not know why this is, but it is.
So if you’re hunched over your flute with the foot tipped toward that fiddle player’s left shoe, you can be pretty confident you’ll skew flat.
Also, where the flute sits on your lip can sometimes change things pretty dramatically.
FINALLY, you have to support the tone from your diaphragm. Even though we’ve all heard it should take no more breath to blow a flute than it does to talk in a normal voice, you do need to support that breath from somewhere … otherwise you just get a puny little starved-sounding thing. So sit up straight, put both feet flat on the floor, hold the flute parallel to the ground, and start trying to feel if you’re breathing from your belly button. It may be as simple as sitting tall and keeping your tummy tucked in a bit more to keep a constant gentle “floor” of support for your wind.
I can’t emphasize the importance of support enough. An experienced flute player can change pitch by simply pushing more or less with the diaphragm. And you need that too, not just for tuning, but for volume control. (Interestingly, takes more support to play softly.)
And then of course, all these things are part of the why they invented the tuning slide in the first place … but do the people you play with REALLY hit spot-on 440 the whole time? I just ask this because I worry about people getting sucked into the habit of playing to the tuner … eventually they know a perfect 440A, but their relative hearing is a mess.
Well, good luck. It’s like everything else … it may seem like huge adjustments at first, but they get more and more refined (and more and more second nature!) as you go along. Meanwhile, don’t obsess about it too much. And … sit up straight! Right now! OK!!! (this from the fetal position gal)
Having heard you play in person, I suspect you need to focus your embouchure more by tightening the aperture and play around with the direction of where it hits the “blade”. At the time, at least, I felt like you were using more air than necessary. On the other hand, I could barely get any sound out of your folk flute, so what works for the style I’m used to doesn’t necessarily work for that. But try it.
Secondly, if you had a McGee made, the MDT’s not a problem. Worst case, just tell him that you play flat and you need more room in the tenon. I don’t think another flute is the answer, though. Actually, i’d recommend picking one and sticking with it.
Oh, I’ll keep on trying - and I know I have a long way to go with my embouchure yet. And that I’m still using more air than I need to. I’ll admit that for a while I confused “has an embouchure that can reliably play two octaves” with “has a good embouchure”, but I’ve learned better.
On the McGee/MDT thing - that’s more a long-term what-if rather than a real goal - I can only play one flute at a time, and I already have two. I like them both enough that I’d hate to give either up, but - assuming I can bring the FF up to pitch - I could be happy with either one of them for a long, long time. If I had to cut down to just one, at the moment I’d probably keep on with the Jon C Rudall rather than the FF, but I’m glad I don’t have to choose.
But right now, it’s the Jon C that I use to play along with CDs.
I always played sharp until somebody told me to pull in my chin. Like Cat says, maybe you could push your lower jaw out a hair?
Also, where the flute rests could matter - if it rests on your chin, maybe letting your left arm do more of the work supporting it? Again, this is buck-shot advice. Shoot a bunch and hope some of it connects.
This may be totally off base. But are you sure the cork in your flute hasn’t been moved somehow? Maybe it has shifted a little, and that could make a difference.
I also know better than to go messing around with cork placement myself because I’m afraid I’ll never get it back to the right position and I’ll play out of tune with myself as well as with everybody else.
I was utterly astounded when my friends told me to push my slide IN instead of out. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. Keep playing!
Actually the cork placement was a bit off. And I reset it to Casey’s spec from the FF care document on his web page (ffcare.pdf) - 23 mm from the center of the embouchure hole.
It was worse before I corrected the cork (it was ~29 mm, before), but I’m still flat. Just need to keep practicing pushing my chin out, roll the head out more, and try to blow across, not down.
I think that getting a stable embouchure early was a mixed blessing - it let me play with confidence (which is good) but also let me establish some bad habits that I need to overcome.
Oh, well. No time like the present to start working on them.
Me, too, although it was trumpet rather than tuba. Funny I’ve never had a problem playing the dulcimer in tune.
I have an all-wood Olwell which I absolutely love, but can’t quite play up to A440. I have a couple of tuneable flutes, so it’s no big deal, but it does bother me. I can play in tune over a limited range – I jump into the upper octave on lower notes, and even jump register on the second-octave D and E. I haven’t checked in awhile; I may be more in-tune now than I was some time ago.
Edited to add: My teacher has had me playing with my back and head against the wall. It helps. It’s the same as his idea, “bring the flute to your lips, never bring your lips to the flute.” I think probably the orientation of your whole windway has something to do with it.
I share the same problem, but it has been getting better as of late, and I’m almost at 2 years of playing now.
The worst it was for me was on an older Hammy I had, a sweet flute when played quietly, but hard for me to play up to pitch unless I really pushed it. Recently, I’ve noticed an ability to play sharper, depending on my embouchure, and also the flute. That includes playing a Burns Folk Flute up to pitch too now, with a little effort. The easiest to date to play in tune is a Burns Standard in Blackwood with no slide that I recently found used here on Chiff. Beautiful flute!
I think the best advice I’ve read for playing up to pitch (don’t know where it was now) is to play like you mean it-Irish flutes are meant to be played at full volume, so bringing the wind from deep, from the diaphragm is the way to overcome some of the problem of playing flat, along with adjusting your embouchure to blow upward and not down into the flute, and with a focused stream of air.
Good points too, others have mentioned about adjusting your chin, and bringing the flute up to meet you, not the other way for the best and most powerful tone. Of course, focusing your embouchure more by whatever method works for you (frown and down, etc.) will also help.
I still play to the clearer and darker tone by blowing down into the flute often because I like that fuller sound a lot, and at lower volume many times, by covering most of the embouchure hole and playing quietly, since I live in an apartment too. But, the more typical Irish tone seems to be a little more airy and punchy, which you get more from blowing higher into the flute, and with more force.
It will come, as you develop your skills, quite by surprise, it seems over time. So, not to worry, it’s early yet-no need to adjust the flute, as I thought maybe too!
That may help but don’t get too attached to it… To have your head AND back against the wall, you have to be pulling your head back, which isn’t ideal in the long run.
Please don’t hold your jaw in some unnatural position position- you’ll injure yourself. This is counterintuitive but try this:roll the head in until the center of the blow hole is in line with the center of the finger holes then bring the flute up and “kiss” the blow hole putting the far edge between your lips. The edge of the blow hole should be a little up on your bottom lip, not where the red part of the lip starts (where it usually is placed when playing a Boehm flute). Then roll the flute out to playing position. This is how I play wooden flutes- Boehm flutes I position lower and more turned out. If you like this thank Chris Krueger; if you don’t, blame me.
I’m in exactly the same boat (perhaps a bit flatter). I sold my Burns FF for exactly this reason. The only option I saw, was to have the shoulders on the body relieved to bring the flute in tune.
Well I’ve come to feel this (flatness) is actually an asset! I can play most of my flutes with the tuning slide/head joint shut. I just rotate the head up or down a little to adjust the pitch (this includes my Jon C. Rudall).
I just ask this because I worry about people getting sucked into the habit of playing to the tuner … eventually they know a perfect 440A, but their relative hearing is a mess.
I can play most of my flutes with the tuning slide/head joint shut. I just rotate the head up or down a little to adjust the pitch (this includes my Jon C. Rudall).