how to play short rolls?

Hi,
sorry haven’t posted in a while, but have been reading lots, but that you can’t tell lol!
I am having a great time with FLIUIT from June McCormack. I am getting pretty confy with the cut and the long roll, but I have a real hard time with short roll.
I read the explanation, and to me it seems like what I should do doesn’t sound like the CD at all. I looked online, and found pretty clear description of what to do as well, and in Grey Larsen’s book to. But still to me, I feel like if I do what is written it doesn’t sound like the CD. What makes it close is almost changing so quickly the fingers position that you almost do cut and tap at the same time, then it sounds more like the cd, quite a work out for fingers, but fun.
Is this it?

any help on the short roll would be appreciated.
thanks

Try to slow down, it always works http://tinyurl.com/y542kx

Maybe it’s not a short roll you’re hearing in the first place? Lots of flute players have their own little unique ornamentations.

I’d suggest concentrating on trying to play what you hear as you say you’re doing. Isn’t it often said to be notoriously difficult to note down or explain ornamentations using standard type notation.

That’s why Grey Larsen doesn’t use standard notation. Or rather, he uses modified standard notation to explain these things.
I think Grey explained it very well in his book, which lead me to believe that it wasn’t acctually short rolls that Malem was looking for, but something else.

No, in her book (which is a good one, and which I am enjoying too, by the way, thanks Whistle and Drum) she explains how to do the short roll, and I agree, in her tunes that doesn’t seem to sound like the notation.

I have always had trouble with “short rolls”, as well.

So I just tell myself:
Why bother?

I have been recording myself lately ( :tantrum: ) and have noticed that while I definately have a LONG way to go, I am fairly pleased with the amount and type of ornamentation I use, which is minimal use of cuts, taps and long rolls…

M

I don’t have June’s book (yet) so can’t explain the discrepancy, but what Malem describes doing is correct: the cut and the tap happen almost simultaneously, with the tap coming just a split second after the cut. Think of the short roll as sounding like the word “diddly” and that may help you get the timing right.

A long roll starts with the note being rolled, followed by a cut, the note again, the tap, and the note.

A short roll eliminates the note at the beginning and starts with the cut; then you hit the note, then the tap, and the note.

When your fingers come down from the cut to hit the note, your other fingers should also be coming down to hit the tap, so they land on the flute one after the other in very quick succession…first the note, then the tap. And the tap should be almost a bounce – pretend that your flute is a stove and you’re just flicking it with your finger to see if it’s hot.

I have the book, and was puzzled by the same issue. Figuring it was just me missing something, I made a note to get back to that section. Of course, life took over, and I never did. …I’ll make another note! :laughing:

Second Brad. Usually the cut, note, tap in a roll need
to be bunched tightly together. It’s easy at the beginning
to play rolls too loose.

I have just listened to the short roll example track from the CD, and to my ears it sounds pretty much like what she explains in the corresponding chapter on short rolls – in Brother Steve’s terms, blah-blah :slight_smile: (Read http://rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/rolls1.html if you have no idea what I’m talking about. Highly recommended page!)

I have then slowed down the track to 25% to hear what she’s really doing. Neither the cut nor the tap produce a clear sound of definite pitch, they are so short that they are reduced to a disturbance of the sound – like a rolled “r” in speech, and the “cut r” and the “tap r” sound different.

What is not explained:

  • does the cut part of the short roll start on the main note or on the cut note, i.e. with the finger down or the finger lifted?

  • if the cut part starts with the cut note, is there a glottal stop or tonguing involved for a better “attack” of the cut?

(Overanalysing, me? Nah.)

peace,
Sonja

It starts with the finger lifted.

I “pulse” the cut with my breath, giving it some emphasis for the attack.

Note that here we are talking about short rolls all by themselves. Sometimes they occur in a tune this way, but they also often occur within the context of a phrase that goes “dum-dah-diddly” with the “diddly” being the short roll. Some people call those rolls “off-beat rolls” when they’re played in this context, but I don’t make that distinction. In the “dum-dah-diddly” phrase, it helps to put a distinct glottal stop at the end of the “dum” and a lighter stop at the end of “dah” before you go into the short roll. There are tons of reels that have this pattern – the first few bars of The Limestone Rock, The Steampacket, The Dublin Reel, Roaring Mary, Sean Reids, The First House in Connacht, The Raveled Hank of Yarn, The Maid of Mt. Kisco, etc. are good examples.

There’s no difference in how long the note is between the cut and tap in a short roll versus a long roll the way I’ve been taught.
The only difference is that the short roll excludes the note before the cut.

Wow everybody!
thanks so much!
it is always a nice surprise how much people here offer generous help.

Brad, reading your posts I think that what my fingers finally made is the right thing (after all reading and trying to match the sound of the recordings).

I laughed as well with the idea of not doing it. It is good to!
but I must confess… I am a bit of a perfectionnist and love learning as well.
I feel that practicing the ornamentation exercices improves my fingers rapidity and mobility a lot. They get more flexible to.
So I will try more.

this board is so great.
thank you all very very very much!

Well said, Mary. Not everybody uses short rolls, and those who don’t sound just fine. I’m still working on short rolls, but in most cases the mordent/reverse mordent/Jack Coen little bubbly thing work just fine. There are some reels that just scream for a short roll for a big-accent quarter note, though.

I’m also with you in that I have MUCH further to go in terms of phrasing/flow/rhythm/intangibles than I have to go with ornaments. In my (damn few these days) lessons, ornaments are usually the last thing we discuss, if we have time.

“Tight” and “loose” are really meaningless terms to describe playing rolls, if you ask me. How tight do I need to get from drinking whiskey before I’m loosened up enough to play my rolls correctly, anyway? I think what seems to get lost when most people talk about rolls and how to play them is that the roll, be it long or short, is not just one ornament but rather a combination of ornaments. The ornaments that rolls are a combination of are the cut and the tap. Cuts and taps are not notes themselves, nor are they “applied to” notes. Rather, they are articulations or note separators, no different really than note separators that involve stopping the flow of breath (such as tonguing, glottal stopping and indeed taking a breath.) The only note separator that ever gets any time value at all is the breath itself, because it replaces a note. (In classical music terms, it’s a rest, which has time value.) All other note separators (articulations) are just blips whose placement determines the time value given to the notes they separate.

So, when you play a roll, what are you really doing? You are separating (or breaking up) one long note into several shorter notes. A “long roll” typically refers to the separation of a dotted quarter note (or crotchet, on the other side of the pond) into three eighth notes (or quavers). A “short roll” typically refers to the separation of a quarter note into two eighth notes. What makes them “rolls” is that the separations are done with finger articulations (cuts and taps) rather than breath articulations. You could just as well use other articulations to achieve the same effect within the tune as you get with a roll, except that at speed tonguing and glottal stopping are much harder to do than finger articulations. Which leads me to another point that people often seem to miss when discussing rolls: The rhythm of a roll is entirely provided by the notes within the roll, not by the articulations (the cut and tap) which are nothing but blips having no time value and only serving to separate the notes from each other - albeit with different effects in terms of definition or crispness of sound than other articulations like tonguing or glottal stops. There are many ways you can break a dotted quarter into three eighth notes depending on how you decide to swing those three eighth notes (i.e. making them all absolutely equal in duration or slightly unequal, placing slightly more emphasis or pulse on one note than you do on another, etc), and the way you do it is going to be determined by what the tune is and how you’ve decided to play it. So rolls on a particular note are not just “plug and play” bits of technique that you can just clone and plop in whenever you want to. If anything is “plug and play” in terms of technique, it is the cut and tap themselves, along with the techniques for doing breath articulations. So when approaching rolls, I think it helps to realize that you are using these articulations to create a particular rhythmic effect within the tune, rather than “playing a roll”. Thus, at non-warp speed tempos you should be able to experiment with other kinds of articulation to break up the notes rather than playing a cut-and-tap roll, and see how the rhythm of the tune is not really affected. Maybe at that speed you’ll decide that glottal stops are okay, but the cut and tap seem to crispen your sound so you’ll go with them and play a roll there. Or maybe not. But at least you’ll realize that there’s more to playing a roll than just “playing a roll”.

So-called short rolls are interesting in that you are not only breaking up a quarter note into two eighth notes, you are also articulating the separation between the note before the quarter note and the quarter note. But since the note before is of a different pitch, you don’t need to articulate there, so what you’re doing is choosing to in order to add some crispness and/or enhance the rhythmic effect of the broken up quarter note. So instead of playing “note before-cut-note-tap-note”, you could just as easily play “note before-glottal-note-tap-note” or “note before-tongue-note-tap-note” or dozens of other combinations of articulations and notes, whichever sounds best and fits the way you want to play the tune. I guess my point is that it’s easy to get hung up on all the minutiae of “how to play a roll or a long roll or a short roll” and not realize that it’s all just arbitrary terminology of how to split notes and achieve a proper rhythmic feel. It’s a simple concept, yet complex, which is probably why Brad, Brother Steve, June McCormack, Grey Larsen, myself, and countless others all have our takes on it but still haven’t come up with a way to explain it verbally so that everyone else understands what we’re talking about…

Well, John, this is wonderful. Still I think what I said
is meaningful. I was seconding Brad who said:

When your fingers come down from the cut to hit the note, your other fingers should also be coming down to hit the tap, so they land on the flute one after the other in very quick succession…first the note, then the tap. And the tap should be almost a bounce – pretend that your flute is a stove and you’re just flicking it with your finger to see if it’s hot.

‘Tight’ is what Brad said. ‘loose’ not this way: the cut and the tap
are too spread out temporally in relation to one another. How’s that?

Your point about the rhythm of the roll is well taken, still
there is the advice to newbies part of this.

Grey says something I find interesting. It helps to think of
rolls, and other ornaments, as attacks on a note.
The idea is that a particular note wants emphasizing,
you decide. The ornament does that and so it begins
and ends close to the note in question. Even taps
happening alone can be thought of as emphasizing
a particular note.

Grey has theories that are good ones, but, as is the nature
of theories, aren’t universal. But I think it can help in
learning ornaments to consider them, sometimes anyhow,
as attacks on a note, find the note in the phrase that
the ornament is emphasizing, and try it that way.
This tends to produce more tightly clustered rolls.

i have june’s book/cd’s. (my first order from her must have got lost in the mail so i emailed her and she re-sent them. she apologetically said there were other complaints that her books were not reaching their destination).

she is pretty much playing tunes as written. short rolls are present in her playing as little blips on the radar - masterfully done of course. they take some folks like me a long time to nail down.

not to worry if you don’t have them down as well june does. she has only been at it a little longer than the rest of us and maybe has played outside of her house travelling around the world a few more times than us.

i highly recommend her tutorial, it’s the real deal, nice flutey tunes

thank you thank you thank you!

I just have one other question after reading.
Is is possible to do the cut part with just stopping breath? and then do note and tap?
instead of a finger used to do the cut?
maybe I got it wrong, but it sounded like an option.

Why not? Give it a go and see what you can make of it. It’s not classical music you know! The day we start making rules about how one must play is the day that the heart and soul of this music dies. There’s always going to be some snobbery about it, but why bother?

Usually, you do a roll by first cutting, then tapping. But who say’s it can’t be done some other way?