Flute repair?

Irish Flute
1

Hi,

after browsing this thread I understood that minimal changes in the pads can cause tone disruption on a flute. My only keyed flute is a 4 keyed (C, Bb, Gb and Eb) cocus Thibouville-Lamy of about 1870. It is tuned in A=440, but I do not play it as some keys are hopelessly out of tune, notably F#, for which I cannot, under any keyed combination, get in tune. And it is sufficiently out of tune for it to be very noticeable audibly.

Yet the flute probably need some repairing, like new corks and new pads. I tried blowing every segment to check for air leaks, of which I cannot trace. But I became worried that maybe there is a air leak so imperceptible as to cause the out-of-tuneness of my flute. Do you think it is a possibility?

Secondly, If I decide to fix it, do you have any contact for flute repairers (is there a list of those somewhere?) I would prefer someone within the EU. Also, my flute is nice and old, but I know it does not hold much value, so I do not want to invest a lot of money in it. How much would it cost to fix it. [BTW, the flute has a slight crack on the tuning barrel, which does impact sound not there is a possibility of any leak, as the inside is metal, but is aesthetically unpleasant].

Thanks for any help

Andre’

2

if the F# is sharp then a leaking key above it might be the culprit,
if the F# is flat it isn’t likely a leak

have you found a cross fingering for F natural that isn’t too bad?

3

Hey Andref,

Your Thibouville-Lamy is French Style flute, with very small holes. These flutes can be very sweet and endearing players. But, YES that F# is going to be Very flat by modern standards. Think of your flute as a Baroque Traverso with a few extra keys.

Some Baroque flutes will play F# (XXX OXX X) which would be all fingers down except your RH first finger and the Eb key held open.

To check for leaks, perform a suck test. First assemble your flute, then cover the bottom hole at the foot and all the tone holes with your fingers. Then gently suck on the embouchure to see if you can draw air. If your flute will hold a vacuum then it is probably well sealed. But if you can draw air, then you need to isolate the source, check each section, then check the joins by adding sections, till you find your leak.

Best of Luck!

4

Hy sillydill

Ooops! I was not touching the flute for so long, and I did no have it with me when I wrote the last post… that I forgot a “little detail” . The flute has another key - short F! This is a weird short F, as it is required for F# which, even when the key is pressed it is still about 30 cents flat (using ET tuning)

The tip on leaks was precious!. Instead of blowing, sucking proved to be much more effective. I actually found out two small leaks. One, in the cork stop, go figure. Not very big, but even using just the headpiece, the vacuum goes away. Also, a small leak on the Eb. None of them are too big. Should I worry about this?

And yes, although not powerful this flute is very sweet, and has very small holes, as you mentioned.

5

Your found leaks will affect the power of the flute, especially the low register, so yes, it is worth fixing them. Even just greasing the stopper generously may suffice, or you can wrap a little PTFE plumber’s tape around it as a temporary, pre-renewal measure, or try steaming it at the spout of a boiling kettle, then greasing and reinserting. Old cork dries and shrinks, especially in an unused flute! Remember to set it correctly.

The Eb key will probably need a new pad and maybe some adjustment, but careful cleaning of the pad surface and tone-hole rim and checking the latter for damage and inspecting the closing action of the key may let you fix it. Check all the other pads, holes and key actions too.

The crack in the barrel CAN leak despite the metal lining - as the lining will not be continuous all the way through, even if the socket is lined (probable in a French flute) as the socket lining is separate from the tuning slide tube and because of how these things are made, cannot be soldered together, so air can pass between the metal parts where they butt together and leak through a crack in the wood. So suck test your barrel too. I bet it leaks! (The oft-seen eBay claim that a cracked metal lined tuning barrel wont leak is rubbish - but the folk who write it don’t know what they’re writing about…)

As others have said, French 5-key flutes of this type have a notoriously flat F#, even more so than English ones, and yes, you do have to vent the F key and the Eb key to improve them - and they still tend flat because the makers/players wished to keep available the Baroque forked F natural fingering. You can read up about French simple system flutes on Rick Wilson’s website so you understand your flute better.

You should also bear in mind that the majority of French flutes of this type were built for the diapason normal pitch standard, c A=432-5Hz, thus rather flatter than modern “concert pitch” - so you should ascertain whether your flute is one of those or one of the rather less common but identical looking ones which is built for c A=440Hz. - knowing which it is will affect your perceptions of its behaviour! If it plays just about at 440 or won’t quite get that high with the tuning slide fully closed, then it is a diapason normal (low pitch) flute if it will play at 440 with the slide open about 10-15mm, it is a modern pitch instrument. This also affects its practical value and what it is worth spending on restoring it.

As for getting it repaired/overhauled, where are you? Many of the makers on The List will undertake repairs if asked, or I do so and there is Jon Dodd in Ireland.

6

For the repair of a keyed flute, you need not depend on a flutemaker or repairer if one is not close to you or if you prefer not to have to ship it somewhere. An instrument repair person who knows clarinets should do just fine. He or she can do as good a job on a flute as on a clarinet for pads, cracks, recorking and renewing spring tension of the keys. You only need a specialist, IMO, if you are going to attempt physical changes to the bore, tone holes or embouchure. I make this suggestion because having an antique flute might cause you to overlook skilled repair persons who might be in your own backyard.

7

Hello again,

You are amazing. Really! The amount of information I get in so short time is unheard. Specially you Mr theflute, the dedication and the quality in your posts is outstanding. Thank you!

To answer your questions. Firstly I’m in Portugal. The idea of having a local repairman is good, and strangely never though of it. With very few few wooden flute players here, so I assumed no repairmen! [in the Irish music scene, I think there are only 3 flute players, including me!] But the local orchestras have lots of wooden instruments, so I should be able to find someone who takes care of them

As to the barrel crack. No sir. no leak whatsoever. I took it out completely and looked into the inside. It’s fully metal (probably silver), the metal is flawless and I could not even find a soldering mark. I tried to suck air as best as I could and no leak was found - at least some good news!

Also the flute plays very well in A440 with the tuning slide about 10 mm open. I can perhaps play it in A432, but I have to open it too much, and the bottom notes become very flat.

8

A valid point, cubitt, though I’d also sound a note of caution - many very good modern wind techs don’t really understand or have much sympathy for antiques, of which they may have little experience, and I’ve seen some pathetic things (e.g. great thick pads and no adjustment of the keys to let them vent the holes adequately, far too light replacement springs, etc.) done to old flutes by techs who wouldn’t dream of botching up the cheapest student Bohm flute… but if you can talk to your local tech(s) yes, do run it past them, see if they sound likely to be able to cope with a suitable attitude. I’m all for having a go oneself, too - cleaning, repadding, regulating keys, relapping tenons are all very doable with a little patience and moderate handiness. Even a barrel crack is not beyond most folk’s skills if they read up on how to do it and get advice from those with experience - and we’ve done a fair bit of that here… :slight_smile:

Nearly cross-posting… OK, good news on your flute’s pitch, andref, and on the barrel being airtight, then. If you can’t find a suitable repairer in Portugal, I think I may know of someone in Spain with experience…

I’d say the majority of French flutes, especially later ones, have German Silver/maillechort fittings, and the French alloy tends to be paler (less copper) than its German and English equivalent… so can look quite like sterling when polished up. But that’s not to exclude the possibility yours is silver-fitted. Whether you can detect it or not, there will be separate metal parts in the barrel as I described.