Question for makers and fettlers (Jon, Terry et al):
I have had various German late C19th 8-keyers through my hands, most with tolerable or even good intonation by 8-key standards. However, one of the first ones I had and did up has an incredibly and mysteriously flat “middle” (bottom of 2nd 8ve) D - yet the fundamental D and the 3rd 8ve one are both in tune or near as damn it, both with each other and in relation to the rest of the scale and even to A=440 concert pitch against a tuner. On that one, which I hadn’t paid much for and on which the keywork was towards the cheaper and nastier (though still functioning OK) end of the spectrum, I kinda gave up on it as a prospective “to sell” and tried enlarging and under-cutting the D tone hole on the foot (yes, I checked the key rise was optimal and that the pad wasn’t shading the hole). This had some effect, but not enough to make the instrument tolerably playable. It fixed up nicely otherwise, but isn’t fit to inflict on anyone!
I have just received another German flute (in generally good condition but needing overhaul) that also has a flat middle D - not as bad this time, so I have hope - I can at least lip this one in! The stopper is correctly placed and the octaves on G have good intonation. Low D is just a little flat of concert when the A and G are tuned to 440 standard. 3rd 8ve D is in tune played oxx ooo, but goes off if the Eb key is opened. But middle D is noticeably flat, both when testing the octaves and in scale passages. There are no obstructions/foreign bodies in the bore and the C# key stands well open. It obviously isn’t classic “flat foot syndrome” as the fundamental notes on the footjoint, low D, C# and C are quite tolerably in tune - less than 15 cents flat even when the flute may not be sealing properly to allow best tone-production in the low register. I’ve played plenty of English flutes with flat foot syndrome in the fundamental but which play in tune over the break into the 2nd 8ve and have middle and top D in tune with each other but low D way flat - the converse situation: what is going on?
So, have any of you any ideas - diagnoses, similar experience, tried and proven cures, theoretically possible cures, etc. etc.? Any suggestions gratefully received.
BTW, please don’t tell me to “stop wasting your time on these cheap German flutes” - I see them as a low risk [financially and aesthetically/morally] way to develop my skills and experience in fixing up flutes whilst producing some decently playable ones (like those I have already sold) to pay for my development.
I had one antique flute on which the middle D was horribly flat unless played vented (with LH1 up), in which case it was in tune. It was an English 4-key with short foot.
Sorry, no help there but I’d be interested if anyone knew the origin of that behavior, too.
Thanks for the interest, Chas. I suppose I should have said, but (making assumptions!) didn’t, that I would automatically raise L1 for middle D in any case - certainly when testing any instrument’s tuning, but also virtually always for playing - I very rarely leave it on even in swift passing. It is, after all, the “standard”, “correct” fingering! Venting the node of the harmonic wave-form thus doesn’t necessarily affect pitch so much as clarity of tone on most flutes for that particular note, though.
Hi Jem
I’ve altered the tuning on quite a few old flutes with some success. I haven’t seen the problem you have but having successfully moved low D up without affecting middle d much perhaps you can try the opposite to what I’ve done.
In theory:
Tone hole size affects middle d more than low D
Tone hole placement affects low D more than middle d
Bore size near the hole affects low D more than middle d
So make the tone hole a bit bigger (use undercutting too especially on the lower edge of the hole so that the key pad still has some wood left to seat on) which will lift the middle d, more than the low D.
Then try narrowing the bore eg with wax to drop the pitch back down which will drop the low D more than the middle.
Hope this helps
Graeme
Thanks Graeme - that’s pretty much what I did on the first, really bad one - though I undercut pretty heftily on the up-side of the tone-hole as well as enlarging it to just about the maximum that left a seating for the pad! I really went to town on it (in stages!) - didn’t seem to make a huge difference to the fundamental, but didn’t improve the middle D by anything like enough. I didn’t do quite so much excavation to the down-side beyond the enlargement, but as the tone-hole is now larger than the relatively narrow bore at that point, there’s kind of a chamber directly below it, and I made so wide and oblique an undercut upstream that it is really more a flare in the bore to the tone-hole now - still to no avail. I suspect the only thing left possible to try without blanking off and relocating the tone-hole (and adjusting keywork to match - far too big an operation for what that flute could ever be worth) would be to enlarge the bore of the foot right through? Or would reducing the bore be more appropriate?
It may be that on the new and less extreme case that prompted my query, the process I applied to the other one may be sufficient and not need to be taken to such extremes. I’m not planning to start on it in the immediate future as I have other instruments I’m already working on or wish to prioritise over that one, but I’d still appreciate any more suggestions.
Jem, certainly an odd one - I’m more used to the opposite problem resulting from Flat Foot Syndrome - middle D being OK but low D flat. I think I have come across it once before, on a German flute also. I think I ended up doing some re-reaming.
Just before I put my thinking hat on (it’s around here somewhere!) are there any other seriously deviant notes? I’d hate to make a suggestion that would inadvertently end up making one of them worse!
Just a note too - third octave D played oxx xxo is really the third harmonic of low G, so it can’t be expected to tell you much about the D situation. If played oxx xxx it will. Ideally both will be in tune - how’s your oxx xxx when pushed to play third octave D rather than 2nd?
The problem with undercutting the upside of the hole is that effectively you’re moving the hole and this affects the low D more than the middle d - that’s why I suggested undercutting the lower edge - sort of makes the hole appear a bit bigger while still leaving some wood to seat the pad on, having already made it as big as possible! Too much undercutting however tends to be making the bore bigger which is what we don’t want.
Changing the bore really does alter the low D more than the middle D. So if by making the hole as big as you can to get the middle d up to pitch you’ve made low D too sharp, making the bore smaller near the hole should bring the low D back down. Melted beeswax should stick in the bore if you sand it a little first to remove the shiny oiled surface.
As I said I’ve done this to several flutes but in the opposite direction, ie. made the bore bigger around the D hole thus bringing up low D quite a lot but middle d a lot less; say low D up 40 cents middle up 20 cents. Actually make that Eb, D, C# and sometimes C. If including low C then you can start by boring it out. If not including low C then you need to chamber it, which I’ve done with sandpaper. In your case you want to go the other way so will be making the bore smaller… But first you need to make that hole as big as possible, - maybe a whole new footjoint???
I totally agree with you about altering old flutes. Sort of like a kitset - you get the wood and metal fittings, already bored roughly correctly, holes in approx the right places. My favourite session flute and one of the nicest flutes I’ve ever played is an anon. German one that I’ve modified. My favourite non-session flute (not as loud) is another old one…with the only mod the flat foot fixed as above.
Cheers
OK, here goes. First, I’ve done a couple of comparative pics of the flutes alongside my R&R for reference - because of the different tone-hole placements etc. All three flutes are set at tuning slide extensions to play at A=440Hz for me. The L hand pic shows them aligned with embouchures level, the R hand one shows them aligned by the 1st tone-hole. The middle flute is my R&R, the L hand one is the as-it-arrived new acquisition and the R hand one is the overhauled and modified one I’ve had for some time.
Second, I’ve done some tuner measurements. Both flutes were warmed up and tuned to their 1st 8ve G at A=440Hz.
The reconditioned flute (on the R in the pics) has an enlarged and undercut embouchure. The stopper is at 19mm from the embouchure centre. It has quite a flat foot with regard to the low C/C#, but has been modified as I described above. As it now is (I didn’t record pre-modification data) the low D’ plays in the range 0 to -2 Hz.
D’’ played oxx xxx gives c-10Hz.
D’‘’ played oxx xxx gives 0 to -2 Hz
and played oxx ooo is pretty much on pitch, with the Eb key making little difference to either tone or pitch.
The new acquisiton (on L in the pics) is as it arrived in the post save that I used some PTFE tape to seal the joints temporarily. The low C and C# pads do not seal and the low c key is bent, so I could not test their pitches, but the keys stand pretty wide open and so should not significantly shade the D. The cork is stuck (for now), but seems reasonably placed at c20mm from embouchure centre. In the second 8ve, all of the notes from Eb up to G inclusive are noticeably flat, between -2 to -5 Hz (their fundamentals are all close on in tune with standard vented keyed fingerings).
Low D’ is between 0 to -2 Hz - pretty much in tune.
D’’ is between -8 and -10 Hz.
D’‘’ played oxx xxx is between +1 to +3 Hz,
played oxx ooo it is between 0 and -2 Hz,
played xxx xxx (unassisted 3rd harmonic) it is pretty bang on in tune, but with usual overtoney character.
I’ve run out of time now, but I might try to record some sound samples to add to the info here when I get a chance.
Have you found the thinking cap, Terry, and do the contents of this post supply what you asked for to cogitate? All help very much appreciated!
Cheers,
Jem.
I think you will find the differences in the two flutes, if you measured the bore contour. I have found that a lot of times the bore is not correct, usually it is under reamed, and sometimes, like I suspect in your flute, to short of a cone. Or is the cone two long? What do you think Terry?
You can get a T bore gauge and measure it, I think that would reveal your discrepancy.
First please excuse both my total lack of knowledge and experience but one thing struck me about the flutes you are discussing.
I have a 9.5 key(double Bb touch) German flute which does not suffer from the problem you are describing, Jon had a look at it for me and commented on the odd tuning i.e. it plays in tune, the one difference from the flutes shown is that mine has an integral foot; could this make a difference or is this just my lack of knowledge talking.
Whoops, sorry Jem. Immersed in the closely allied discipine of domestic plumbing!
Yeah, interesting one. I hope I’m right in interpreting your data as “a gradually flattening pitch as we approach the bottom of the 2nd octave”? If so, some bore manipulation sounds appropriate, rather than just focussing on a particular hole, though even there may remain need to fiddle the holes as well.
For a start, try running some thick wire, like coathanger wire, some nails or even the stem of a metal tuning stick up the bore from the foot, to see if it will have the effect of pulling the octaves closer to tune. It may flatten the low octave rather than sharpen the second, but if we can get closer to a good octave relationship, you could then investigate sharpening the bottom of tube notes.
Thanks, Terry. I’ll try that tomorrow or Friday and report back. As far as the so far unfettled flute is concerned, the intonation of 2nd 8ve G down to Eb is not progressively flatter in a cumulative fashion - they are all a little flat by varying amounts, but then there’s the stand-out issue of the D. The done up and modified one is pretty much in tune on the octaves of the whole scale, which isn’t bad generally (flat foot aside) - it would be a nice, easy playing beginners flute were it not for that duff middle D.
Gostrangely - thanks for the interest and input. I too have had other German flutes that didn’t have this specific issue - such as the ones I’ve previously sold, both with integral lower body and foot and with separate sections like those in question here. I don’t think the problem here is affected by whether the foot is integral or not. I didn’t mean by my thread title to imply this was a general problem with German flutes - it isn’t: but when I had a second one turn up which reminded me of the first (if less extreme), I thought it worth picking folks’ brains here - especially as I’d like to find a fix if there is one.
I was thinking along the lines of an ill-fitting tenon prehaps leaving a gap or otherwise affecting the bore.
I’ll be very interested to hear how you get on with this.
I also know well that you’re one of the few champions of the German flute; well at least some them.
“Champion” might be putting it a bit strongly! Many of them are truly cruddy - but there are also a good proportion that are perfectly decent - I’d say the odds of getting a decently playable (though probably not a stonking foghorn) late C19th German flute are considerably better than they are of getting an English one from that era that isn’t High Pitch.
I’ve just done some experimenting with bore changes which I think will fix your problem of flat 2nd octave D. I was able to recreate this problem by putting in a piece of 6mm diameter 40mm long wire and moving it around. When placed in the vicinity of hole 1 (nearest head) 2nd octave D was lowered by about 25cents without affecting any other notes much. C# was lowered by ~10cents 2nd octave E by about 10 cents. Low D unchanged. I checked up to 3rd octave A.
So you’ll need to enlarge the bore at that point. Increasing the diameter by about 1mm will give the same change in cross section area as my 6mm diameter “probe”.
Graeme, thanks so much for doing those experiments and letting me have the results. I’m afraid I’ve been sidetracked away from these flutes (partly out playing!!!, partly busy buying some more flutes and evaluating them as they arrived, partly life generally…) and haven’t even got around to trying Terry’s suggestions. I will get back to them in due course.
One question, could you be a little more precise about where you are suggesting bore-expansion may be effective? Headwards or footwards of the (upper) C# tone-hole, or either side of it?
This is reminding me a touch of Terry’s current experiments on Weedie’s flute!
Hi Jem
You want to be altering the bore at approx the midway point between the blowhole and the vent hole for the note you want to alter. (Approx because the size of the vent hole affects it’s position and both vary.) So to alter 2nd octave D this is near hole 1.
On the flute I experimented with; blowhole to D vent hole is 530 mm so the bore around 265 mm is where you want to alter it. I found that using a 40mm long probe 6mm diameter, that it works best if the probe is from 225mm to 265mm down from the blowhole. Pretty much right at hole 2 on my flute. Move it closer to the blowhole and you affect higher notes F, G etc
Actually this also solves a problem I had. My daughters Siccama keyed Metzler flute is really well in tune (as expected) except 2nd octave A and B are sharp. (3rd octave is in tune as are all other notes.) It’s caused by the fact that the tuning slide has to be pulled out about 35mm creating a bore expansion 35mm long at halfway between the A and B vent holes and the blowhole. Have just fixed it (since starting this reply) by adding 30mm to the tuning slide. There’s a photo of it on Terry’s site here: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Sicc_Ext_others.htm and now it not only looks and sounds good it plays 2nd octave A and B in tune!
That sounds good but watch out for change of similar direction (ie widening) in the other foot notes, and a narrowing of the octaves just below the area you are expanding (probably around A?). You might want to replicate Graeme’s fishing* expedition on the flute in question first to guide you.
You might think - who cares what happens to the octaves of C and C#, but if they wander too far, the bottom notes won’t play sweetly. Of course that might not bother you if you aren’t planning to use them!
*“Fishing”, as the process of testing the effect of a constriction in the bore is called, is made much easier if you make up a fish on a stiff bit of thin wire, so you can move it up and down the bore easily. I used some thin piano wire - it needs to be thin so as not to represent an eel. A helper is great too, but they need to be patient!
Thanks again guys - that’s really helpful - and I understand the logic now! Apart from verifying the correct area to attack, my only problem now is how best to go about it given that I have neither the machine itself nor the skills to use a lathe! Producing an accurately placed, evenly shaped bore expansion “chamber” by sandpaper on dowel or something similar, even if I drive that in my pillar drill, is going to be an interesting challenge! However, I’m willing to risk sacrificing the already savaged flute as an experimental subject - nothing to lose thereby!
