Hey all,
I was just reading a post about double and triple tonguing. I have heard of techniques, but don’t have the slightest idea how to even try to attempt to do it. Just wondering if any of the family could advise me in any way. Thanks to all!!
“T-k” or “T-k-t”.
This thread was taken from the woodenflute mailing list regarding triplets.
‘I’d like to pop in a quick question: Does Kevin Crawford do his triplets triple tongued or finger ornamented?’
I may be way behind the discussion here, having not yet caught up with all the e-mails after a few days away, but … I asked KC when he was in Canberra, Australia with Lunasa how he does the triplet ornament that features prominently on the D Flute album, and he said that he does it in his throat - ie the previously much discussed glottal stop.
Cheers, Michael Stone
\Xavier wrote:
‘I’d like to pop in a quick question: Does Kevin Crawford do his
triplets triple tongued or finger ornamented?’I may be way behind the discussion here, having not yet caught up with
all the e-mails after a few days away, but … I asked KC when he was
in Canberra, Australia with Lunasa how he does the triplet ornament
that features prominently on the D Flute album, and he said that he
does it in his throat - ie the previously much discussed glottal stop.At the Scottish flute weekend in Aberdeen in November, Niall Keegan talked about tonguing triplets and other ornaments. Niall said that he himself cannot physically do the tongued triplets based on a rolling “R” and instead uses a glottal, guttural technique, just as Michael is describing.
In Niall Keegan’s demonstration, he hawks as if to spit, collecting and gargling the saliva in his mouth in one action. “Pretty disgusting” is how he described it, but it is certainly effective and, er, fluid.
Niall was encouraging in the use of glottal stops and that “coughing” effect. As for the risk of vocalising, he also saw this as a positive effect, helping to create a “dirty” sound. This may not be to everyone’s taste, but is at least a good exercise to help flex the muscles and broaden the palette (no pun intended).
Other tongued ornaments Niall does are based on the “tuh-kuh-tuh” sound, which helps give an attack to to the ornament. Personally, I have always found this awkward and opted for “diddle-iddle” or “diddle-uh” when learning the whistle and have always used on the flute – I find there is more flexibility and also and a precedent in the technique of lilters.
I am not sure if it’s wrong or note to post comments from other lists onto this one but I save threads that I find particularly helpful. If it’s wrong for me to post this please chime in and let me know and I’ll remove it.
Well, I don’t know, I thought that bit about Niall Keegan was pretty interesting… Whatever he does, he sounds pretty good on that Wooden Flute Obsession CD
Mary
[ This Message was edited by: Whistlin’Dixie on 2002-11-04 20:22 ]
In the Scoiltrad flute lesson “The Rainy Day,” Conal O’Grada teaches how to do staccato triplets with glottal stops.
I can’t do it right or predictably yet; I have a feeling that this particular effect (which sounds a lot like piping if done correctly) may take years and years to get just right.
As for tounged triplets, you may find that “duh-guh-duh” gives a cleaner, more even triplet than “ta-ka-ta.” To get 'em even better, practice them slowly and backwards: “guh-dug-guh”.
Best,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
For beginners in Irish trad music, tonguing in general, and triple tonguing in particular, is probably not something you should worry or think too much about. Generally, it’s not done. The few trad players that use triple tonguing (or any tonguing, for that matter) are being innovative, pushing the limits of what defines trad playing. If you already have a background in classical playing on a Boehm flute, you already know how to do this, but will spend a good chunk of your time unlearning tonguing techniques in order to play in an Irish style. Breaking up notes are either fingered, glottalled or both.
Conal’s triple glottal is very hard to do, and most players don’t do this, either, but, then, most of us can’t play like Conal anyway!
On 2002-11-04 21:15, Gordon wrote:
For beginners in Irish trad music, tonguing in general, and triple tonguing in particular, is probably not something you should worry or think too much about. Generally, it’s not done. The few trad players that use triple tonguing (or any tonguing, for that matter) are being innovative, pushing the limits of what defines trad playing. If you already have a background in classical playing on a Boehm flute, you already know how to do this, but will spend a good chunk of your time unlearning tonguing techniques in order to play in an Irish style. Breaking up notes are either fingered, glottalled or both.
Conal’s triple glottal is very hard to do, and most players don’t do this, either, but, then, most of us can’t play like Conal anyway!
I agree as a beginner do not even bother to try tonguing. You will find it much easier to finger the grace notes than to attempt to toung notes. If after you learn how to play and you want to add variations you can play with it at that point. I have sat in classes where the instructors are repeatedly trying to get student to correct mistakes caused by the preceded need to tong notes. As a beginner learning the finger movements and rhythm of a tune are quite enough adding the ruffles and flourishes can always be done later.
[/quote]
I agree as a beginner do not even bother to try tonguing. You will find it much easier to finger the grace notes than to attempt to toung notes. If after you learn how to play and you want to add variations you can play with it at that point. I have sat in classes where the instructors are repeatedly trying to get student to correct mistakes caused by the preceded need to tong notes. As a beginner learning the finger movements and rhythm of a tune are quite enough adding the ruffles and flourishes can always be done later.
[/quote]
That’s not quite what I said, but I do agree with you in any case.
What I was on about is this: In Irish music, almost regardless of regional style, there is little or no tonguing, so to concentrate on tonguing done in the exception is complicating your playing growth. I started on the Boehm flute, and had to un-learn classical tonguing in order to play in a traditionally Irish way. Tonguing has entered into the tradition recently via the innovations of some very fine players, but they are still the exceptions, is used rarely, discriminantly, and almost exclusively on triplets and fancy ornaments, as opposed to classical playing, where tonguing is used to articulate throughout.
A beginner (or even an advanced player) listening to Crawford, then, should probably pay more attention to everything else he is doing, rather than concentrate on what really is no more than a personal “trick” (for lack of a better term) that Kevin occasionally uses to show off his much lauded technical abilities. There is even some disagreement as to whether he is, in fact, tonguing, and not glottaling.
Glottalling the way Conal does it is far more common, but used more on pulse and as a means to articulate, generally, than to articulate a triplet.
I think that as a player’s expertise increases, there is a tendency to add flavors not necessarily in the rule book to add personal touches because you can, and this is great. Adding these tricks to your arsenal eventually is great, too, once the groundwork has been laid.
Gordon
Very clear and concise:
Thanks
Phil