CrossFingering or not to CrossFingering,that is the question

Whistle
1

shoutjoy, I’m sorry but I needed to use the topic subject something like your “Tongue or not to tongue, that is the question.” (Tongue or not to tongue, that is the question.). Thank you! :thumbsup:

Dear whistlers,

Every one knows that whistles are diatonic instruments (except those ones that request whistles to have extra holes for the pinky or for the thumbs to play those notes chromatically without cross-fingering techniques).

Whistling in ITM seems to avoid tunes with cross-fingering and, for those that it exist, the player can work around to keep away from them with some musical techniques or use half-holing that could be very difficult to manage. However, I know that there are tunes that use some cross-fingerings.

The following link shows you a fingering chart in D (but you can explore others keys) that contains several cross-fingerings (and optional cross-fingerings because, naturally, they are whistle dependent):

http://www.fullbodyburn.com/html/flutes/whistle_main.html

If I want to play in tune with cross-fingering, I know that some of you immediately could tell me to buy a rec**der instead… Nevertheless, for you and for me, that love the amazing sound of the whistle (…humm, this could be an interesting name for an album: “The Sound Of The Whistle”…!) and could use the cross-fingering, my question is:

In you opinion, and when you buy a whistle, how do you privilege the possibility/capability of that whistle to play (well and in tune) cross-fingerings?

Thank you very much for your feedback. :thumbsup:
My Best Regards!

2

I’m glad you started this thread. I was thinking of starting a similar one, for the purpose of inviting people to comment on how well cross-fingerings work on specific whistles. Maybe that could happen in this thread too?

To answer your question: For me, it’s important to have as many cross-fingerings as possible, which basically means that I’d like to be able to get Bb and Ab in both octaves. My reason is very simple: Even though these aren’t especially important for ITM, I like to play other kinds of music on the whistle too.

I have nothing against half-holing, and in fact I use it quite a lot. There are, however, musical situations where a fingered note is preferable to a half-holed one. I want as many options as possible, even if I don’t use them that often.

I enjoy playing recorders, but, as you say, the sound of the whistle has its own special appeal. I did try a Susato wide-bore soprano recorder, which is pretty close to a chromatic whistle. The bottom octave sounded just beautiful on that instrument, but the top half of the second octave was exceedingly harsh. I tried the O-ring tweak, which helped a bit, but not enough. I’d love to find a recorder with a husky, whistle-like timbre. I think I’d be playing such a beast a lot. But I haven’t found it yet, and it may not exist. Maybe it can’t exist.

The trouble is, I buy most whistles online, and makers and vendors seldom comment on cross-fingerings, since they’re not very relevant to traditional music. So you don’t know how well they work until you buy them. It’s not a big deal for an inexpensive whistle, but I’d want to know about cross-fingerings before dropping a large sum of money on a whistle. I also don’t know whether having good cross-fingerings makes some other aspect of whistle intonation harder to achieve.

Of the high D whistles that I own, the two that have the best cross-fingerings for Bb and Ab are the Parks Ghost whistle and the Impempe. I had a borrowed Chieftain high D for a while, and it was also quite good. My Gonzato alto G is also pretty good.

The Dixon Trad (brass) has a fair, but somewhat muffled, Bb; the Ab just isn’t there. I’d say the same of the Freeman Mellow Dog. The Generation Bb (untweaked) that I have, can’t get either note. The Dixon polymer alto G doesn’t play the cross-fingered notes very well. The Howard low D can’t touch them. The Clarke Original high D gets a fair Bb, but not Ab.

Ubizmo

3

Considering possible cross-fingerings, only Cnat (in D whistle terminology) is of importance to me (and used a lot in Irish and Scottish trad music, for tunes in G major and related modes). But I never considered how the C nat cross-fingering would work out for a whistle I was going to buy, just hoping it would somehow. Personally I prefer a thumb hole for C nat, and half-hole other accidental notes like Fnat and G#.

4

Eb and F nat. have to be half-holed as there are no cross fingerings for these notes (though some whistles can get a decent F nat. in the 2nd octave with XXXOXX). G# cross finger works pretty well on some whistles. Fairly well on Susatos. Very well on my Brackers (thanks Hans). I mostly use the cross finger for G# but I use half-hole some too. Bb I find awkward to half-hole so I always cross finger this note. Susatos and Brackers have good cross fingered Bb. And all my whistles are equipped with thumbhole C nat. so no need to cross finger C. So with two half-holed notes (Eb and F nat.) and two cross fingered notes (G# and Bb) I can get a pretty good full chromatic scale for over two octaves. This opens up lots of possibilities beyond ITM.

5

I should add that I made the L3 hole smaller on those whistles to achieve a much better cross-fingered G#/Ab. Normally I make L3 larger for an easier half-holed G#/Ab. It needs to be one way or the other IMO.

6

Yes, the 3rd hole is a little smaller on my Brackers so as to lower the pitch of cross finger G#. This makes half-holing a little more difficult but it’s still feasible. I use half-hole on G# occasionally. And it’s easy enough to get a good slide on the 3rd hole (getting a glissando or bent note effect from G to A).

7

I have a nineteenth century French whistle, strongly conical, holes all of equal size, that crossfingers all chromatic semi tones quite nicely. With a bit of concentration you can play the Drunken Sailor hornpipe on it without bother.

8

One wonders if there’s anything in the conical form that is favorable to cross-fingering. It doesn’t help my Clarke Original much. Maybe somebody with a Carbony will check in.

Ubizmo

9

Aren’t Ralph Sweet’s whistles also conical? It would interesting to hear from some Sweetheart players too.

10

One thing I’ve noticed on my Susato whistles (D, C, and Bb) is the cross finger G# gets progessively sharper as the tubes get longer. On the D whistle G# is about 10-15 cents sharp. Not too bad. Definitely a useable note. On the C whistle it’s about 20-25 cents sharp. Not so good but useable as a quick passing note. On the Bb whistle it’s more than 40 cents sharp. No good at all. These are all S bore models. I wonder if there is a correlation between the pitch of cross finger G# and the length to bore ratio.

11

I have a fair few Goldie/Overtons and they all cross finger well. Half hole for Eb, Fnat and I prefer to half hole the G# on the second octave. I’m sure more inexpensive whistles have tuning issues with cross fingering but adjusting you pressure can easily cope with 10 -15 cents flat or sharp and usually these notes are pretty infrequent, though for Scottish music it’s good/necessary to be nifty at the G#s.

12

I’ve never cross-fingered G#. What fingering(s) do you use? I’d like to test it on my whistles and see how it works.

13

On the low octave try XXOXXX, on the second octave try XXOXXO.

14

Yes. Or XXOXOX in the second octave.

15

I use XXOXDO for 2nd octave G#. I find this easier than XXOXOX and I can get the tuning a little more exact.

16

Thanks, everyone! I’ll give those a try on a few of my whistles and see if they’ll work well enough.

Is that a typo – D means O (open hole)?

17

No, half-hole.

18

I thought the point of cross-fingering was that you didn’t have to half-hole. I don’t understand why you’d mix the two, doing an “odd” fingering and having to half-hole anyway. If I want to half-hole a G#, wouldn’t it be easier to just use XXD OOO?

19

Funny, I was going to say the same thing. A major reason to cross-finger is to avoid the main limitations of half-holing: the slidey note transitions, and the awkward ornamentation. Half-holing a cross-fingering defeats the purpose.

But in this case xxoxDo it’s not so bad. The upward transitions from g# involve lifting both bottom fingers anways. The downward transition to f# involves lifting B2 anyway. And transitions to e and d can be done fairly cleanly by sliding B2. And cuts/taps/rolls on g# will be done on the top hand (T1 and T3), so the half-B2 doesn’t really interfere.

Still … On nearly every whistle the pitch you want is going to be somewhere between xxoxoo and xxoxxo/xxoxox. Specifically, if xxoxxo is a bit flat, you should be able to get it up to pitch with breath control. Which makes the half-hole hybrid fingering unnecessary.

20

The G# fingering XXOXXO just doesn’t work on any of my whistles. Very flat and if I try to push it up it overblows. The other three G# fingerings all work pretty well with major diatonic scales such as A major and E major. But I think one clear advantage the “hybrid” G# has is that it works better with scales and runs that utilise the interval of a minor third. For example a D Minor scale with a raised 4th. Try this 5 note scale starting on middle D–D E F G# A (and back down). Notice that to get from F (XXXXDO) to G# (XXOXDO) you simply raise the LH ring finger (and place it back on when descending). I find this easier and faster than using the forked (XXOXOX) or half-holed (XXDOOO) G#. Now, this is a scale that you’ll probably never encounter in ITM but in blues, jazz, klezmer, middle eastern music, etc., you see it alot.