The metal parts could be coming from Pakistan. Michael has been very open about not making his own keys (per emails in the past). With my new flute, he told me via email the keys were designed to his specifications, and they seem nicer than the older flute’s keys. Still, they may well come from Pakistan. It seems one of Michael’s goals is to make a good flute at a reasonable price. As long as the keys work, I’m OK with them.
One final note - I’ve owned a Pakistan made flute…sounded like a slightly open car door when you played it (no matter the note). What’s listed, under M&E’s ebay name, is not a Pakistan made flute body (although the keys may be).
What about the body? Who makes flutes out of ebonite these days, other than the Pakistanis? Seems to me the rings are Pakistani, the keys are Pakistani and the body is Pakistani. The air inside might be from a damper climate …
Californian maker Rod Cameron used to offer upgrades of Pakistani-made flutes. Perhaps M&E are too?
Terry - I specifically asked that question of Michael in the thread linked above, and he was quite clear the rods were made in Scotland and he reamed, cut tone holes, etc. himself. My new flute is ebonite (Michael said ebonite holds keys much better than PVC), and the new flute has the same dimensions, embouchure cut, tone hole size and bore size as my older PVC M&E flute…which would seem a remarkable feat considering the one Pakistan made flute I’ve owned and the others I’ve seen and tried to play. In an email to Michael after receiving the ebonite flute, he told me the flutes were “sent out to have the keys added”. The body is simply not the same as the one ebonite Pakistan/Indian made flute I’ve had the chance to try.
Owning 2 M&E flutes, the bodies look as similar as my friends 2 Dave William’s flutes.
I don’t really understand the big deal about where certain parts or possibly all of the flute is coming from. I’ve owned 2 M&E’s and I’ve dealt with Michael many times in the past. I highly doubt that the flute body is Pakistani, but I think the keys may be. And if the body where from Pakistan, why exactly would it matter? It would certainly be reworked a great deal by Michael and M&E flutes always play great. Here’s the chance to own a modern, intune 8-key flute which plays like some of the best of them for way under $1000. Why would it matter where it comes from?
And I assure you all that I’ve dealt with Michael enough times to know that this would be the last man on earth (including Ghandi and Dalai Lhama) who’s out to make an unfair profit.
Michael is set to provide affordable and great playing flutes. They have never been lookers with huge attention to detail, but then that’s pretty much the only place where they differ from flutes that cost 5 times as much. Also- I’m not affiliated with M&E in any way, I’m just a happy customer.
There’s a market for these as well as the very high end flutes. I understand why people look at the high end ones, and I do myself. But I also understand people that live happily with an M&E flute for the rest of their lives.
I was told that the ebonite in my M and E flute came from India. I don’t know where it was lathed or reamed or bored or finished. While I know that Mr. Cronnolly’s U.S. webmaster had an online article claiming that Michael was reworking foreign flutes, I don’t know if he still is or to what extent. The end result is a very good flute, and a few excellent flute players have played it and had the same opinion.
I’m wondering.Having listened to a good few of the M&E recording on clips and snips none of them had what I’d call a good thick juicy tone. They sound more hollow and a tad thin (possibly ‘bright’?) to me.Even on the M&E website.We may be talking preferences here? This could be down to maybe two or three things.I don’t know these flutes. Can they oooze!?
Stuporman - when did you get your ebonite flute? I just received mine last week, and it is a prototype and Michael had bought some new equipment to make it.
As mentioned in the thread I linked to in page 1, Michael told me he does all the body work himself on his flutes, but his PVC flutes PVC is provided by a UK company called Protomould:
Michael, not being very computer savvy, had Bill from Protomould send the pictures hoping that they would show folks that he has Protomould mould the flute body, he does all the tone holes, etc., as reported by folks on this very forum who have personally visited his shop and seen polymer flutes in various stages of creation.
I have no idea if this applies to the ebonite flutes as well as I know nothing about the process of moulding/creating ebonite products. With the measurements being the same as my PVC flute, it seems possible Protomould made those too (although it could be an Indian company as Stuporman reported that makes them to Michael’s specifications).
Gorjuswex…my M&E oozed when played by Turlach Boylan…just not as much by me. The Olwell, Williams, Burns, McGee and Doyle flutes I’ve played in the past year don’t ooze much either. So much is the player, not the flute when we’re talking tone.
Eric, I received my ebonite flute in early March. I don’t know if the body is made to Michael’s specs, or if what if any work on this flute is done by foreign manufacturers. I was looking for a maintenance free flute in the polymer he uses and was offered a flute in ebonite. When I asked Michael where he gets ebonite from, he said India. He’s a gentleman, and his flutes sound far better than any Indian or Pakistani flute I’ve heard. I bought the flute for my daughter to learn with and was quite surprised at how good it sounds. As I said in another thread, everything works and works well. I would recommend the flute to anyone.
Aanvil…darned if I know. I personally can’t tell what goes where in the pictures…but I can see the M&E end cap. I guess if you’re using a mould you could create the bore at the same time…if you have a good mould, I’d expect it would work fine. The tone holes and embouchures are definitely individually cut.
Stuporman - Thanks for the info. We must have the first of his new style of keyed flutes. Being maintenance free is wonderfully freeing…I play much more, anywhere, without worrying about hurting the flute.
Eric ,did you manage to get a recording you could post a clip of? BTW I’m not critising at onyones tone production on these flutes, it would be a sad day when all players tone sounds the same. I’m not saying the tone is bad. To me it sounds a bit ‘raw’ and ‘hard’ or ‘harsh’ in most clips. Maybe a M&E owner could post a clip of a player who can get the ‘fuller’ sound from their flute, a friend maybe? The sound quality on the M&E website is not great some obvious distortion (recall the show bands, if you want to hear the words go outside the hall, better still leave). Micheal may be playing it with a harder edge on purpose, can they have the softer but fuller sound as well?
I did not think to record Turlach either time he played my flute. I just listened so I could hear what the flute “could” someday, hopefully, sound like.
I can try to put up a clip playing Bach. I was playing through my wife’s piano book the other night to work out the low C and C# keys a bit.
I think we had a bit of a failure to communicate earler. Ooze to me meant something like Conal O’Grada on Top of the Croom…whereas I believe you’re version of ooze is more refined. I had originally in my ebonite thread planned on posting a clip of a nice slow aire…but I hadn’t played any recently enough to do that. If I can get a free evening at home (with wife and son out of the house and dog booted outside), I’ll try and post something slower.
I think the M&E has a particularly fat sound when played that way, however I do have trouble finding clips demonstrating that. Here’s one from youtube which is a little less edgy than Michael’s own playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duuhlQ2NAFA&feature=related
You’ll also find a couple of clips on an M&E played by me if you look through my signature. However, none of them where made under the influence of
whisky
Thanks for the replies. Yes that’s what I mean. So they can be given that type of voice. I’ll have to look out to see if I see anyone playing one and if they’ll let me have a toot.
Henke - even without the affluence of incahol you were flyin great.
So that’s what my M&E should sound like, I’ll have to keep working on it; great playing Henke.
I shall drink a toast to you Friday, I have an unopened bottle of Abelour which I’m worried may go off; I’ve had it for nearly 2 weeks and you can’t be too careful.
Back to ebonite - I have no idea what M&E use or how, but I do know that ebonite rod stock for many uses is available - and other forms too, and that there are European firms who can supply it - I had occasion to do some surfing research on it a while back… I believe that it is usual to turn and ream woodwind tubes from solid rods, just like with wood or Delrin, though apparently it is horrid to work with due to the overpowering smell of burnt rubber and sulphur. However, I seem to recall something I read that suggested that bespoke forms could be ordered, doubtless including thick-walled tube that would be like pre-drilled timber, just needing step-drilling and reaming to internal profile (and turning down externally). Bear in mind that clarinets and oboes for the student end of the market are still commonly made in ebonite, even if it has been uncommon for flutes since the 1920s - a pity really as it is a good flute material - Rockstro loved it! For some reason it was displaced by metal at much the same time as wood for modern Bohm flute making, although it might well have been cheaper and in some respects easier to work than metal, and they had sorted out the chemistry properly by then too, so it was less liable to go brown/green/yellow or craze than the early stuff could be. It is perhaps equally surprising that few of our current wooden flute makers have ventured to use it (that smell, maybe?). I’d guess even limited orders of specially formed ebonite stock would not be more expensive than good quality tropical hardwoods, and its tone-producing qualities are excellent.
FWIW, the ebonite Empire Brass Indian Eb thingumy I have (and have discussed here before) is of what appears to me to be not best quality ebonite - a little soft, granular and noticeably burnt rubber smelling even undisturbed, dull sound when tapped with finger-nail. By contrast, my 1920s Rudall Carte piccolo which is also of ebonite is much harder and doesn’t usually smell noticeably, though it does lose its surface shine and go matte greeny brown if rained upon, as I found out in the Parade in Lorient last summer! Its blackness does come back in time, though.
Jem - that was one thing I noticed upon opening my ebonite M&E…it didn’t smell like burnt rubber at all. It’s definitely not soft or granular…I would have thought it the same PVC he uses for his keyless flutes if not for the label and Michael’s confirmation.
I should perhaps add that I only really noticed the relative (but not excessive) softness and fine granularity of the Indian ebonite when I actually did some work on it - re-shaping the embouchure with engineering files and fine wet/dry paper. The surface finish is in fact good, and as some may recall from the “dodgy ebay flutes” thread, once doctored it plays very acceptably. (I said I’d put up a clip and some pics of the upshot, didn’t I - and haven’t yet …watch that space!). If only… (they made 'em really in D and sorted out the keys better!!!).
Although I’ve never worked with ebonite, in machining rubber and rubber-like materials a machinist would ordinarily use water, as a coolant and as a lubricant.
And, in that process, perhaps the use of water could greatly reduce any “burnt” smell.
There is a clip on Michael Eskin’s web site of him playing an M&E. If I could sound like that I’d die a happy man. I can’t manage to get the link to go directly to the comparison page, but start here, click “Traditional Irish Music,” then click “Irish Flute/Whistle Comparisons.”
