Thoughts on Learning

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:02 am

Here are some thoughts on learning to play, taken in no certain order, prompted in part by a discussion on chat last night.

First let me say that if you are serious about learning Irish music, you should find a teacher if you can. Their guidance will have you playing better and having more fun in a lot less time than you would otherwise.

If you live where no teachers are available (as do I and no doubt many other members), online and / or multimedia lessons can be a good alternative, if you are already at a certain level of ability.

And that brings me to my thought:

Not every player is the same, so not every learning process is the same.

Some folks may have a strong sense of rhythm but not be so strong on manual dexterity. For them, it makes sense to follow the often-given advice to learn the skeleton of the tune first and then add ornamentation later.

Some folks may have good rhythm as well as decent manual dexterity. I would think for them, the best way would be to learn the tunes and some ornamentation at the same time. I think the problem with not learning some ornamentation as you go is later, when you have the tune played simply pretty much under your fingers, you add cuts and rolls and suddenly you've lost the tune you've worked so hard to learn, and you are having to relearn it all over again, and it's harder this time, because your fingers keep wanting to play the tune a different way.

Finally, you can have folks with pretty good dexterity but no built-in metronome. They may spend all their life and never quite learn to keep a rock-steady beat. That's not to say that they should work on that and nothing else, though, and it's not to say they may not become decent players. But I jsut don't think it makes sense to spend years working on nothing but skeletally-simple melodies and rhythm, knowing that when you finally get it down, adding the ornamentation you could have been learning all along is going to throw your playing a curve ball anyway.

The point of this rambling, poorly-written post?

I think for most folks it makes sense to learn to play in a rounded approach, where you learn a tune and some simple ornamentation, and as you add new tunes you also add new ornamentation skills.

I know there are folks on the board, some of them extremely good players, who will disagree, so consider it just my $.02 worth.

Best to all,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:10 am

I don't believe beginners should get hung up on ornamentation, especially if doing so hurts their mastery of the "naked" tune. That being said, for Irtrad I believe beginners should become familiar with simple cuts - nothing more - as early as possible. Actually, I think all players can go a long way using only cuts as their ornamentation.

Jens

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2003-02-17 10:10 ]</font>

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:20 am

On 2003-02-17 10:02, peeplj wrote:
Here are some thoughts on learning to play, taken in no certain order, prompted in part by a discussion on chat last night.

First let me say that if you are serious about learning Irish music, you should find a teacher if you can. Their guidance will have you playing better and having more fun in a lot less time than you would otherwise.

If you live where no teachers are available (as do I and no doubt many other members), online and / or multimedia lessons can be a good alternative, if you are already at a certain level of ability.

And that brings me to my thought:

Not every player is the same, so not every learning process is the same.

Some folks may have a strong sense of rhythm but not be so strong on manual dexterity. For them, it makes sense to follow the often-given advice to learn the skeleton of the tune first and then add ornamentation later.

Some folks may have good rhythm as well as decent manual dexterity. I would think for them, the best way would be to learn the tunes and some ornamentation at the same time. I think the problem with not learning some ornamentation as you go is later, when you have the tune played simply pretty much under your fingers, you add cuts and rolls and suddenly you've lost the tune you've worked so hard to learn, and you are having to relearn it all over again, and it's harder this time, because your fingers keep wanting to play the tune a different way.

Finally, you can have folks with pretty good dexterity but no built-in metronome. They may spend all their life and never quite learn to keep a rock-steady beat. That's not to say that they should work on that and nothing else, though, and it's not to say they may not become decent players. But I jsut don't think it makes sense to spend years working on nothing but skeletally-simple melodies and rhythm, knowing that when you finally get it down, adding the ornamentation you could have been learning all along is going to throw your playing a curve ball anyway.

The point of this rambling, poorly-written post?

I think for most folks it makes sense to learn to play in a rounded approach, where you learn a tune and some simple ornamentation, and as you add new tunes you also add new ornamentation skills.

I know there are folks on the board, some of them extremely good players, who will disagree, so consider it just my $.02 worth.

Best to all,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Well, here was my experience as a complete beginner (I've been playing a whopping 6 months now). At first I tried to learn the tunes I heard as fast as I could, to be able to "kick bootay in a session", with all the flicks, cuts, rolls, etc.

Then reality set it, I got depressed at a lack of progress, and almost quit. However, insanity reasserted itself, and I started over.

This time, I started learning the "naked" tunes, and taking whistle lessons at our Irish Cultural Center. I have learned the value of scales played over and over in different ways. Now, we are just starting with some basic ornamentation (Slides, cuts and flicks).

My best way to learn is to go through a tune slowly until I can play it recognizably, then play it in different ways (Make it sound like an air, a reel, a slide, whathaveyou.) I know about 6 or 7 tunes by heart "naked", and when I get comfortable with some of the ornamentation I will work it in.

Aodhan

Duffy · Post by **Duffy** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:53 am

OK, I am still begining to start to commence and about as serious as I am able to get about anything. I'm doing the on-line bit. But I have to ask the basic and obvious question; 'Anyone teaching in the Memphis area?'

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:21 am

Some observations for what they're worth...I hear a lot of session players on other instruments, who have been playing for some time, have rock steady rhythm, and play with almost no ornamentation at all. People generally 'ooh and ahh' discussing people like Kevin Burke or Martin Hayes (fiddlers), who use ornamentation beautifully. I get the impression that people either don't want to branch out into that area, which would mean relearning tunes they know really well, or are just happy with what they've got.

Whistle players, on the other hand, go berserk immediately w/ ornamentation at the expense of the melody and rhythm. (There may be a couple of examples on the Clips site...) I know I did this, and when I backed off and focused more on the basics, I found it nicer to ease back into ornamentation gradually. The benefit of this mania was that I learned the mechanics of doing various ornaments; it was only later I learned more about how to use them appropriately. That may be the natural evolution of self-taught players. That's where self-recording played a valuable teaching role.

I agree with Jen's comment about learning cuts early on. Placed in strategic spots, the add a lot to tunes. I think whistle players overuse short rolls that interrupt, rather than enhance, the rhythm.
Tony

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:40 am

On 2003-02-17 12:21, TonyHiggins wrote:
Some observations for what they're worth...I hear a lot of session players on other instruments, who have been playing for some time, have rock steady rhythm, and play with almost no ornamentation at all. People generally 'ooh and ahh' discussing people like Kevin Burke or Martin Hayes (fiddlers), who use ornamentation beautifully. I get the impression that people either don't want to branch out into that area, which would mean relearning tunes they know really well, or are just happy with what they've got.

Whistle players, on the other hand, go berserk immediately w/ ornamentation at the expense of the melody and rhythm. (There may be a couple of examples on the Clips site...) I know I did this, and when I backed off and focused more on the basics, I found it nicer to ease back into ornamentation gradually. The benefit of this mania was that I learned the mechanics of doing various ornaments; it was only later I learned more about how to use them appropriately. That may be the natural evolution of self-taught players. That's where self-recording played a valuable teaching role.

I agree with Jen's comment about learning cuts early on. Placed in strategic spots, the add a lot to tunes. I think whistle players overuse short rolls that interrupt, rather than enhance, the rhythm.
Tony

I agree with all that's been said, and would like to add that it's a good idea to record yourself occasionally (you don't have to record on the computer or post your efforts if you don't want to...a simple tape recorder will do fine). It's really hard to listen objectively to your playing WHILE you're playing, and hearing a recording can both bolster your confidence and help you to see where you might want to make some improvements. It's also useful, when you think you're just not making progress, to go back to one of the earliest recordings you made and actually HEAR how much progress you've made.

Redwolf

spittin_in_the_wind · Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:46 am

On 2003-02-17 10:53, mrlester wrote:
OK, I am still begining to start to commence and about as serious as I am able to get about anything. I'm doing the on-line bit. But I have to ask the basic and obvious question; 'Anyone teaching in the Memphis area?'

Hi! You might want to post this question in a separate thread, I'll bet you'll get some answers that way!

Robin

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:57 am

Well heck I`ll jump on this thread for the ride. In my 3 or 4 months on this path of musical bliss I have discovered many things. First of all having grown up making music with either my voice or guitar I thought this would be a natural. NOT! When I was making music I didn`t pay too much attention to rythm. It was the feeling I was trying to get accross and I thought little of changing the rythm of the song I was singing. I still do that with airs but now that I have taken the step into jigs and dance tunes my right foot has become very important. I have mostley been playing tunes that were in my head and just keep poping out of the whistle. The other day while struggling with a new jig a tune from my childhood started to dribble out of my whistle. It was an old TV add tune I learned when I was a kid watching Capt. Puget, a kids show that was on where I lived. They were sponsered by a clam eaterie in Seattle called Ivers. And the tune I new as Acres of clams. Well I soon had it down on the whistle and it realy did sound Irish. (course everything sounds Irish to me now) and as it turns out it was. It`s called Rosin the Bow. So ya just never know. On ornimentation. To me they are my mistakes. If I like them I leave them in. It`s only recently I have learned that they are cuts and rolls and such. I also find whistle tab to be most helpful in teaching my fingers a song I haven`t heard before. Once they know what to do I listen to the tune to get the timeing and rythm down. There are forsure bad days but I try not to let them get me down. If I am having a real bad time with a tune I don`t let it spoil my practice time. I jump right in and play some tunes I know and can have fun with and then start again with the devil tune which ever it may be. I also listen to as much music as I can, fiddle, squeeze box and whistle and flute. I also have lots of whistles to fit into my mood. Oh ya and I have FUN

Tom

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:04 pm

James I'm with you all the way except for the teacher part. I started out with an instructor but I found it was a huge waste of money. I wasn't learning any quicker than I would if I studied at home. Part of this may be a reflection on my teacher but I find it far more beneficial to teach yourself. I'm including Scoiltrad in teaching yourself BTW. I religiously use trascribe! software to learn new tunes. It makes it so easy to learn by ear.

As far as ornamentation Teri-K once told me her teacher said it's better to learn a tune once than have to learn it twice, the second time with ornamentation. This is regarding bag-pipes but I find it hold true for myself. I find a tune that I like the way it's played and learn it from the CD by slowing it down and learning the ornaments as part of the tune. On my own I can take out ornaments that I find too difficult (i.e. Crawford’s triplets) and keep the ones I like.

The only benefit I find from a teacher is his experience. Technique i.e. embouchure, finger position, I can get plenty of good advice from C&f. For rhythm and phrasing I don't think someone can teach you those things. They come from listening.
I do think it's good to check in once in a while with a better player than you and check your progress.

- Craig

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:20 pm

Its been many years and 4 musical instruments since I've needed an instructor to teach me a tune. Happily that's not what I'm paying for, as I can read music and listen to CD's on my own. Except in beginner situations, the instructor is there to provide guidance on technique, not to show how a tune is played.

For instance, its one thing to look at sheet music and play it, its another to have that sheet music in front of you and have someone point out a bar and be able to show you five different ways to play it (and a handful of ways NOT to play it too).

Or notice lazy fingers and immediately set up an exercise to get those fingers participating.

Or point out how effectively you're using a technique, or one that takes away from the flow, or how to emphasize a phrase so that it sounds right.

Maybe some people can do it automatically. I know a few who think they're brilliant players but don't have a knack for more than getting a whole bunch of notes out as quickly as possible, and 'beginners' who have taken face to face lessons and don't know many tunes or embellishments, but have picked up a lovely lilt because someone showed them how they can make it sound right even slowly.

Maybe its a matter of finding the right person to teach.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:22 pm

I think having a real, live teacher can be very valuable in the first few years of learning.

I will agree that when you reach a certain level, you can certainly keep on going without a teacher, but I still think it would be helpful to have one to offer feedback and guidance.

I am reminded of the quote "I like what I lack." (Don't ask me who said it.) I don't have a local teacher, and now see the value of having someone knowledgable who can tell you "try putting a cut here and here," or "I once heard someone play this with roll here, see if that doesn't give a nice phrasing."

I think part of it is what you want to do with it, also.

When I first started playing Irish, I just was in love with the tunes.

Then I wanted to play them "good enough" to play in our little band.

Then I wanted to learn to play them well.

Now I want to learn to play them authentically.

You can teach yourself to play well--I suppose it's possible to teach yourself to play authentically, but I think that is easier with a teacher who himself is already where you want to be.

Also, I think Lee has it right with all of his "enjoy your music" messages.

After all, none of us are ever likely to make the big bucks playing whistles and flutes. So if we're not doing it because we enjoy it, why are we doing it?

I would also like to thank everyone who has written back so far, rather you agree with my thoughts or not.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

burnsbyrne · Post by **burnsbyrne** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:55 pm

Enjoying your music is number one, isn't it? I have been asked several times by people who saw me play the guitar if they could do that. After telling them that it was going to take a while I told them that you are better off if you enjoy practicing because you'll be doing a lot of it. For me the tactile part of making music is important. Feeling the vibrations while I play is a thrill. You don't get that as much on a high D whistle as on a guitar but it's there nonetheless.
About teachers -- I think if you can find one, do it. Even if you can only meet once/month because of distance or how busy you are. I can't splain why but I know is good. (Oops, fell into Ricky Ricardo mode.) I use the weekly lessons as a stimulus to practice. If I'm paying for these lessons I'd better get my money's worth. Also, I don't want to embarrass myself. Now, I know there are some of you out there who just have to do it yourself. Great, but I can't do it that way.
Mike

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:16 pm

Don't forget to listen, listen, listen. I hear a lot of players with good technique and questionable rhythm, and I think they just don't listen to enough of it.

I also think that having a teacher is the way to go. I have a whistle teacher and a fife teacher. I don't look for them to tell me exactly how to play a song, I look for them to give me direction for my practice.

If you don't have a good teacher locally, think about a trip to one of the seminars or festivals. You can take classes with a master at some of these.

Or if your business or vacation plans are taking you to a major city, see if there's a teacher you can schedule a lesson with while you're there. Bill Ochs in NYC often takes people for a one-time lesson. An hour or two with a teacher like that will give you the information you need to begin working on the skills that will take you to the next level.

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:47 pm

LOOK OUT!!!! Here I go!!

Nah, basically all I am going to say is my little part in how I started to learn. I play by ear, and started w/tabs not to long ago, but I still pick things up by ear mainly. Can't read sheet music to save my life other than Every Good Boy Does Fine.. ok it's an F! HA!

I made up my own stuff to start with. I heard the whistle many times but didn't know what it was. I found out, made one (yes, they're only 8-12 bucks for a cheap one.... I still couldn't afford one at the time!

and started playing. In a week or two I had it figured out on simple tunes, and I was throwing in some ornamentation, although I didn't know what it was... just 'chirping' a finger is all I knew!

Took me years to find neat stuff on the web, this site, my own site after some time, etc.

It has been a very fun and wonderful ride. I hope to never stop playing!

Take care,
John

hillfolk22 · Post by **hillfolk22** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:07 am

I have not had the pleasure of taking lessons from a teacher. Would welcome that immensly.

One of my faults that I would need to overcome is my shyness before someone who is more advanced in playing.

I could play a tune just fine and then go to the teacher and flub it up majorly.

FRUSTRATING!

Laura