MIDNIGHT WALKER sound on Concert chanter?

[Eric F.]

Hello,

I have a question about miking Concert chanters for live playing. A great flat set sounds the best without microphones or effects, but for a special scenario, I will use my Concert pitch chanter for playing with recorded backing track of symphonic orchestra. I will use a microphone with added reverb. Here is the example what is the tonal result of chanter which I am after: http://youtu.be/JPiNt5miW_I

If you are one of those pure traditional players who "dislike" the »Spillane« sound & his use of synth backing or reverb, then please just ignore this post !

I know that only playing like him and making similar great reeds would help the most, but my question is about which microphone and which reverb unit to add to come close as possible. Anyone with long experiences in live performances, or knowing Davy personaly who could share his thoughts about the question.

I am thinking on 2 scenarios:

1. A well known method which is used by John Mcsherry is to use 2x Shure SM57 microphones. I gues he prefers it, to get the balanced sound from all toneholes (including back D).
2. However I am leaning toward the 2nd option, which is to use 1 single live Condensers like Neumann KMS105, or AKG 535.

I would like to have minimum equipment of good mic and a small good reverb unit. Any suggestion, what to choose for this kind of chanter tone?

As far as I know, Davy was also using saxaphone pickup in some period, but I don't like the idea. Also I heard that he was using sometimes 3 mics on chanter: 2 x AKG C1000 and one posh mic beetween, but I am not sure if it is true?

Thanks a lot!

[PJ]

SM57 for the chanter. Condensers are better used for drones/regs (but there is an art to positioning them).

In addition to your choice of mics, the venue and the sound engineer will both have an enormous effect on the sound. You can't do much to change the venue, but if you have time, talk to the sound engineer, let him hear your pipes live, and let him know the sound you're shooting for.

[Eric F.]

Thanks PJ for your help!

Condensers are better used for drones/regs

Why do you think so? Becouse of feedback or something else?

Both AKG 535 & Neumann KMS 105 are handheld vocal mics with great results. Neumann has especialy hi SPL, so feedback problems are minimized. AKG was used by Eric Rigler in Alasdair Fraser live concerts, and Neumann was approved as superb for using with chanters here:https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A ... 740%2B0200

Your advice about talking with "sound man" is great, but I want to be able to create and play with this sound also at my home, so thats why I will buy my own mic, small reverb unit, small mixer and a small acoustic amp or mini PA.

Mixer and amp/PA won't be problem, but only finding right mic and reverb unit, which will give me that similar "Midnight Walker" sound.

Thanks again!

[MTGuru]

In my humble opinion (and only my humble opinion), very expensive mikes like the Neumann are probably overkill for most live stage work unless you're amortizing the investment over many, many performances. The weak link in the sound chain is going to be somewhere downstream anyway, including the acoustic characteristics of the room itself. Hence the popularity of the SM-57/58 mics. They're reliable and predictable and, importantly, familiar to any experienced sound person, who will know how to integrate them into the chain.

As for reverb, that's usually a function of the live mixing board, not a separate unit. Because it's properly used not as an effect per se, but to sweeten the room acoustics. And if you're using multiple microphones, you'll need a mixer anyway. Playing live, the sound guy will set the individual channel reverb to your taste and to match the room and overall setup. At home, a personal mini mixer like one of the Behringers with built-in reverb will give you the same control.

[tompipes]

Andrew Boland, who recorded Davy for Moving Hearts and Riverdance always used a KM 84 for the front of house sound and a Barcus berry pick-up for the monitor audio. Andrew is the audio designer and has recorded multiple CD's and DVD's for a show that I work with now and he prefers the KM184 now as the KM84 isn't available anymore.

But, you're looking at $1000 for a new 184 or more for a used 84.

I personally don't like Shure mics for the pipes. I find the AKG range to be a little 'warmer' in sound. Not as harsh.

For a great price the AKG C5 vocal mic works great on the pipes. For a few dollars more the C1000 is excellent too.

If your budget is really tight you won't go wrong with the AKG Perception 170. Really great value and as instrument mics go they beat the SM57 hands down.

My 2c!

[MTGuru]

All those AKGs are condenser mics, Tommy, so it sounds like that's where your preference lies.

I personally don't like Shure mics for the pipes. I find the AKG range to be a little 'warmer' in sound. Not as harsh.

Strange. The usual complaint about the SM57/58 is that it's too warm and better as a vocal mic. And I've had (and read of) trouble with the C1000s sounding too bright, too crisp. A nice guitar mic, though, for capturing the percussive transients.

I'd guess it's more down to the ear of the beholder, and more the specific mic model than the overall maker. I like AKG, too, and the Perception 170 does seem to be a good condenser value.

[tompipes]

Yes, they're all condenser mics.

As good dynamic mics go, the Sennheiser 441 is perfect for the pipes. I use it on a gig that I do for the flute and whistles but I tried it on the pipes once and I thought it sounded better than any Neumann!

The MD 421 is just as good at half the price too!

A lot of audio engineers like to use the inbuilt reverb effects in sound desks. It's less hassle, what with extra cables, power supplies, etc. but there is a difference between the types of reverb you'll find on a half a million dollar digico desk and a 12 channel JBL desk. So some people like to set up their own external effects units for consistency.

I don't know anything about that kind of thing but I do know that Davy Spillane and Andrew Boland came up with a secret recipe for Davys chanter that includes a KM84, a specific EQ pattern, a combination of a specific type of reverb (hundreds to choose from), digital delay and chorus.

The 3 effects are patched through their own channel on the desk so you treat them like an instrument. You set the gain, set the EQ pattern, adjust the volume as needed. You can even add reverb to the reverb to really finely tune the effect you want.


Tim Britton is a good man to chat to about this kind of stuff. He really knows his stuff when it comes to audio gear!

[Eric F.]

Hi Tommy,

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts! Nice to hear your expertise here – you must have a realy rich experiences playing with such a great bands.

It looks quite elaborate this Spillane »rig« & probably very expensive so I will have to rely on the sound guy for live venue.

But for my home »living room« use and enjoyment – I think I won't buy the PA system – it is just overkill. So I think I will get the next things: Please comment Tommy if you can suggest any other solution for home mixer, speakers and especialy for the effects, where I am a total noob!

1. AKG mic - do you think Tommy that 1 good mic. is realy enought for the chanter?

2. Mini mixer (a good one with decent preamp) – I was having this in my mind: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EPM8
Do you have any other suggestion?

3. Two active Tannoy monitors like this: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Reveal802
I hope they will be good for pipes?

4. And four separate effects (reverb, delay, chorus and mybe compression). Finding them will be the hardest part as I don't have a clue! Usualy there is choice of multieffect Rack or pedal effects (which are usualy for guitar players, so there will be a impedance issues…)

I found these for vocals: http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/voicetone-singles/
but I'll have to find other brand for delay & chorus, since here they have only reverb. Any name?

Tommy, what did you mean by this?

The 3 effects are patched through their own channel on the desk so you treat them like an instrument.

To put each one of them into separate channels input ?

Thanks again Tommy!!! Thanks a lot.

[tompipes]

1. AKG mic - do you think Tommy that 1 good mic. is realy enought for the chanter?

One should be enough but it depends on the situation. In a quieter setting like your living room or even a concert hall stage 1 mic is fine for the chanter. If your in a noisy bar or club you could use 2 positioned as close as you can physically get to the chanter.

2. Mini mixer (a good one with decent preamp) – I was having this in my mind: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EPM8

I'm sure it'll do the trick. Again it depends on the capacity of the space that you want to fill with sound. Mixing boards, just like pipes, sound different from brand to brand. Read as many reviews as you can and you'll figure out which boards are preferred but 'acoustic' bands. Chances are they'll be the ones that suit the pipes too.

3. Two active Tannoy monitors like this: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Reveal802

These are studio monitor speakers. The kind that you'd use to listen to your recordings during the mixing process. Kinda like fancy home stereo speakers. You'll want something in this department http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/live-sound/pa-speakers/
Check out the Fender Passport. It's an all in one system that might just be the thing for you. Perfect for playing around with in the house or a small venue.

4. And four separate effects (reverb, delay, chorus and mybe compression). Finding them will be the hardest part as I don't have a clue! Usualy there is choice of multieffect Rack or pedal effects (which are usualy for guitar players, so there will be a impedance issues…)
You could run one of those guitar effects units through the desk via the auxiliary inputs.

The 3 effects are patched through their own channel on the desk so you treat them like an instrument.

To put each one of them into separate channels input ?

Yes, I realise this will use a lot of channels up so consider a guitar rig and patch it through the aux channels.

[tompipes]

On the strength of this chat and similar ones on facebook, I've started a blog on microphones suitable for pipes. For live sound and recording.

I have at least a dozen reviews to post and I'd be delighted to receive any comments and reviews from all who care to speak out!

http://irishpipes.wordpress.com/microphone-for-pipes/

[MTGuru]

I've started a blog on microphones suitable for pipes.

Nice, Tommy. You've certainly got the experience.

A gentle correction, though:

Of the two the 58 vocal mic is a little better from the pipes because it’s a multi-directional mic which means it picks up sound from all around the front of the mic. The 57 is omnidirectional so it picks up sound from it’s direct line of vision.

Not so. First, The SM57 and SM58 are actually the exact same microphone; that is, they share the exact same dynamic capsule. The only difference between the two is the rounded ball grille on the 58, and the built-in pop filter inside that grill. They have the exact same pickup patterns, frequency response, etc. If you don't believe me, ask Shure and/or check the mic specs at Shure.com.

Vocalists prefer the 58 for the obvious reason that you can "work the mic" and kiss the grille without popping the mic. Instrumentalists prefer the 57 because popping is less of an issue, and you can position your instrument closer to the mic diaphragm without the ball in the way. Install the add-on foam pop filter on the 57 (e.g. for vocals or whistle) and it's effectively a 58.

As for the patterns ... Your terminology is a bit off. The SM57 is not omnidirectional, which would mean approximating a 360-degree pattern. Both the 57 and 58 are cardioid, with a front-facing pattern to about 120 degrees off-axis. For a "direct line of vision" you'd need at least a hypercardioid mic which is more tightly directional, or a shotgun or parabolic mic. And the term "multi-directional" is not one I've heard used. But a mic that "picks up sound from all around the front" will generally be cardioid.

As for the rubber duck squeak ... It's odd. Because all things being equal, a dynamic mic will be "muddier" and a condenser mic "brighter". The capacitive film of a condenser can simply respond faster to frequency transients than the inertial mass of a dynamic mic magnet in a coil. And faster response means higher frequencies and a brighter sound. I guess there could be some strange interaction you're hearing with pipes, but it's hard to imagine because the physics and my experience suggest that condensers can be, if anything, overly bright and may need to be EQ'd down for an angular waveform double-reed instrument like pipes.

Anyway, I'm no audio expert, but I hope that helps!

[Eric F.]

A blog on microphones is brilliant idea indeed! Thanks one more time!