'breathy' vs 'pure' tones

[mrcharly]

I've been listening to a bit of music that has flute playing (Flook if you must know) and it struck me that some players seem to produce a very 'breathy' sound, whilst others more pure tones. Is the breathy tone the player or a characteristic of the flute?

[plunk111]

Yes...


(sorry, had to do that!)

[Loren]

First it would be helpful if you provided particular tracks / artists that you find pure and "breathy", simply because what one person identifies with being, say, buzzy, like McGoldrick's typical recorded sound, someone else might think of as breathy, which clearly, to my mind, it is not, and so on. Point us to a Flook track or YouTube vid that illustrates what you mean by breathy, so we can get on the same page you're on.

That said, I think of breathy as a sound typically produced poor technique, while various amounts of "buzz" are something different altogether. Good ITM players often have varying amounts of that in the sound they create.

Mic placement, type, and recording techniques often play a large part in how much of what I think of as "breath sounds" you will hear, but these factors are more or less independent of technique. That is to say, a player who doesn't have a particularly "breathy" sound in person at the pub, could sound rather breathy recoded. Particularly if not recorded by someone inexperienced/unskilled milking and recording flute players.

Most good players can play pure or buzzy, and some talk about this and demonstrate the differences in lessons and workshops.

As for the flute factor..... It's mostly the player IME, but a good flute is a flexible and will allow a decent player to achive a range of sonic variation. OTH, a poor flute my make getting a good pure, or buzzy sound difficult. A poor flute could certainly sound breathy, but you won't hear any of those flutes on recordings by any decent players.

My thoughts on the matter anyway.

[mrcharly]

Flook - Flatfish album - 'Bruno'. The sound I mean is pretty distinctive in there.

[LorenzoFlute]

Let's not confuse "breathy" and "reedy", these are completely different effects.
And yes, if we are talking about good flute players, it depends on their style or a particular effect they want to achieve.

[kkrell]

Yes.

Time for a (St. Patrick's Day) plug of the "Wooden Flute Obsession" CDs, for a wide variety of flute tone, articulation, etc. There are MP3 samples at http://www.worldtrad.org , including a few big (3.5 MB) files with 10-second snatches from each track on the first 2 volumes.

Kevin Krell

[mrcharly]

Let's not confuse "breathy" and "reedy", these are completely different effects.

So - the sound I'm referring to, is it 'breathy', 'buzzy' or 'reedy'?

[LorenzoFlute]

In that Flook track Bruno I would say breathy, even though I suspect a big part of the effect he got from the mike setting. Of course you can have all the different combinations of breathy, reedy and pure ( and probably few others)

[Loren]

Flook - Flatfish album - 'Bruno'. The sound I mean is pretty distinctive in there.

Yeah, lots of character in the tone on that track, and a couple of really lovely tunes written by Sarah Allen.

So there I believe you have what is mostly Brian's playing sound/style/technique, accentuated a fair bit by the method of recording - mic placement etc. More breathy than reedy on the first tune Bruno. (I tend to use the more generic term buzzy, since reedy means different things to different people, but I believe Lorenzo and I are describing the same sound artifact.)

Now in the second tune of the set, A Quiet Autumn, more reediness and somewhat less breathiness is are apparent in Brian's (main) flute sound.

More player doing something different or recording techniques? You'd have to ask Brian. Thinking about it now, I also wonder if, having two flute players in the band, a conscious decision was made to mic the flutes differently to help differentiate them and add tonal contrast to the mix. (In addition to the inherent differences between Sarah and Brian's styles and flutes.)

To add to the mix, I think bamboo flutes tend to produce a more breathy sound than other flutes, for technical reasons not worth getting into.

Anyway, Brian has a pretty distinctive playing style and he tends to sound more "Breathy" than typical ITM players, but to be clear it's not the same breathiness I associate with players who have weak embouchure/poor technique.

I do miss Flook, saw them live and they were fantastic.

Here's a bit of Brian playing flute at Burwell Bash with just guitar. A good place to start lookin and listening for how he achieves his sound, and I don't mean the amplification equipment.
http://youtu.be/7JUrg7qG0Ak

[tin tin]

This reminds me of an anecdote I read some years ago in John Krell's 'Kincaidiana: A Flute Player's Notebook':

Krell observed that up close, William Kincaid (principal flute for the Philadelphia Orchestra 1921-1960) had some air and fuzz in his tone, but at some yards distance the tone was completely pure. When asked about this, Kincaid said something to the effect of an 'air cushion' being needed to give a rich, projecting tone.

It follows then (assuming the player is using this technique), if the flute is close-miked you'll hear some air in the tone, whereas in an unamplified concert hall you won't. Of course, some players are also aiming for a rougher/dirtier sound at any distance, which is a different matter.

[mrcharly]

Flook - Flatfish album - 'Bruno'. The sound I mean is pretty distinctive in there.

Anyway, Brian has a pretty distinctive playing style and he tends to sound more "Breathy" than typical ITM players, but to be clear it's not the same breathiness I associate with players who have weak embouchure/poor technique.

I do miss Flook, saw them live and they were fantastic.

Here's a bit of Brian playing flute at Burwell Bash with just guitar. A good place to start lookin and listening for how he achieves his sound, and I don't mean the amplification equipment.
http://youtu.be/7JUrg7qG0Ak

Thanks for the link, I'll have a closer listen to that at home. Lovely to listen to but I get the sound of their playing in my head and that's a hard act to follow. Brian is pretty quick.

Saw Flook live many years ago, that's when I got my copy of Flatfish.

[Gromit]

I think Flook are a great band and they are still playing a few gigs - been a fan since the early days when they were known as Three Nations flutes.

Anyone know how to do that rhythmic technique that Brian uses between the two tunes at 3.22 into the above video?

[Akiba]

Finnegan is using a double tonguing technique there using the vowels "du tu ku tu / du tu ku tu" in different combinations while lightly blowing and sounding in between the lower and middle harmonic. At a lesson, he encouraged me to experiment and use that technique as a creative rhythmic exercise. He's such a great player and teacher.

[Gromit]

Thanks for that Jason, I did a whistle workshop with him and agree that he's a good teacher.