Hi,
Is there a way of restricting the amount of air and air pressure to the drone reeds without any resulting degrade in tone.
Basically I am looking at a system whereby a set of drone reeds are as economical as possible with air yet somehow restricting the rush of extra air and pressure when the extra pressure is increased on the bag when playing the chanter in the upper octave. There may be a simple solution or something more complex such as a restricting valve.
In addition to this, has anyone come up with a set of composite drone reeds that are really super efficient with air?
Anyone any ideas?
Mike
Efficient drone reeds
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mike delta
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geoff wooff
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
It does sound as if the problem might start with using a chanter reed that is too strong, too heavy to blow, too much change of pressure between the octaves.
Heavy to blow chanter reeds need strong and ,often, wind supping drone reeds... Of course air leaks have to be absent in the system.
It is so hard to answer this question but yes there are things that can be done and perhaps it all dépends from whence you start. My own starting point is my own set which can be played with bag pressure from my little finger only ... that is chanter, drones and regulators together.
There are no pressure regulating valves for the drones and two of the drone reeds are more than one hundred years old... perhaps, like the set itself, these reeds are now closer to the 200 years old mark.
These old reeds show that there is no need for complex answers , just a more considered approach to chanter reed making .
Does this help ? If not then perhaps a more detailed description of your set up (type of pipes,maker, climate etc) could be usefull.
Heavy to blow chanter reeds need strong and ,often, wind supping drone reeds... Of course air leaks have to be absent in the system.
It is so hard to answer this question but yes there are things that can be done and perhaps it all dépends from whence you start. My own starting point is my own set which can be played with bag pressure from my little finger only ... that is chanter, drones and regulators together.
There are no pressure regulating valves for the drones and two of the drone reeds are more than one hundred years old... perhaps, like the set itself, these reeds are now closer to the 200 years old mark.
These old reeds show that there is no need for complex answers , just a more considered approach to chanter reed making .
Does this help ? If not then perhaps a more detailed description of your set up (type of pipes,maker, climate etc) could be usefull.
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mike delta
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Hi Geoff,
I take your point and yes you are correct (aren't you always
) the chanter is particularly hard blown in this instance. It is an old Peter Hunter wide bore (banjo blaster)that only really gives its best with a hard blown reed. A softer reed just doesn't cut it somehow and gives all kinds of problems such as poor tone and tuning et cetera. A hard blown (original reed) does bring the best out of it but by Jove; it is extremely hard work. A standard drone reed set up results in the reeds clamping shut once the second octave is played. To get around this results in weighing the tongues of the drone reeds and have the aperture of the vibrating tongue quite open too. Hence my reason for looking at possible air restriction devices for the drones.
I have a more modern set (chanter and drones) that reeds up easier and allows a softer approach without compromising on tone and tuning and the drone set-up compliments the chanter. However, one has to choose ones sessions very carefully or it can be difficult to even hear oneself playing. Horses for courses as they say.
As an aside, concert sets seem have got louder (imho) over the last 30 years or so and sessions in general too but that of course is another issue for another possible thread.
Mike
I take your point and yes you are correct (aren't you always
) the chanter is particularly hard blown in this instance. It is an old Peter Hunter wide bore (banjo blaster)that only really gives its best with a hard blown reed. A softer reed just doesn't cut it somehow and gives all kinds of problems such as poor tone and tuning et cetera. A hard blown (original reed) does bring the best out of it but by Jove; it is extremely hard work. A standard drone reed set up results in the reeds clamping shut once the second octave is played. To get around this results in weighing the tongues of the drone reeds and have the aperture of the vibrating tongue quite open too. Hence my reason for looking at possible air restriction devices for the drones. I have a more modern set (chanter and drones) that reeds up easier and allows a softer approach without compromising on tone and tuning and the drone set-up compliments the chanter. However, one has to choose ones sessions very carefully or it can be difficult to even hear oneself playing. Horses for courses as they say.
As an aside, concert sets seem have got louder (imho) over the last 30 years or so and sessions in general too but that of course is another issue for another possible thread.
Mike
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geoff wooff
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Well,
perhaps you should reserve that 'banjo-blaster' chanter for those occasions when it is needed and then you might not hear the drones and decide to switch them off anyway. One point regarding session playing with the pipes is that if you can clearly hear yourself then maybe you are louder than the rest of the players ? Just a thought.
So, coming back to your drone pressure filter thought; the drones on the sets that I make are fed with air by two 3/16" diameter holes through the back plate ,into the Chamber of the Hollow Main Stock. This appears to be suffcient for my sets but how does it compare with your set up ?
Are sessions getting louder and are D pipes also getting louder ? I don't know.... there are no Sessions anywhere near that I would visit. Back in the days when we lived in Co.Clare we would try to avoid heavy Banjo,Bodran and Guitar sessions... besides which I am not a session piper ( believing that a Piper should have just the one set and mine is a C) prefering to use the Concertina for playing with other people.
A 'loudness competition' type session is not one a piper can win anyway (IMHO).
perhaps you should reserve that 'banjo-blaster' chanter for those occasions when it is needed and then you might not hear the drones and decide to switch them off anyway. One point regarding session playing with the pipes is that if you can clearly hear yourself then maybe you are louder than the rest of the players ? Just a thought.
So, coming back to your drone pressure filter thought; the drones on the sets that I make are fed with air by two 3/16" diameter holes through the back plate ,into the Chamber of the Hollow Main Stock. This appears to be suffcient for my sets but how does it compare with your set up ?
Are sessions getting louder and are D pipes also getting louder ? I don't know.... there are no Sessions anywhere near that I would visit. Back in the days when we lived in Co.Clare we would try to avoid heavy Banjo,Bodran and Guitar sessions... besides which I am not a session piper ( believing that a Piper should have just the one set and mine is a C) prefering to use the Concertina for playing with other people.
A 'loudness competition' type session is not one a piper can win anyway (IMHO).
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MichaelLoos
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
I don't think so. The loudest chanter I have is an old Dan O'Dowd/Johnny Bourke chanter which was made well over 30 years ago.mike delta wrote:As an aside, concert sets seem have got louder (imho) over the last 30 years or so
Most Leo Rowsome chanters I heard were about the same, volumewise.
A lot depends of course on the reed setup.
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Christian Tietje
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Hi Mike,
interesting problem - not solved by pipe makers as far as I know. Ignoring the good points about a loud chanter in sessions where drones are anyway not audible I advise the following. Apart from these the loud chanters do not sound well!
- The problem is the necessary high pressure for the chanter which is too high for the drones.
- The solution would be to reduce the pressure only to the drone reeds and not to fit the drone reeds to the pressure of the chanter. The drone reeds should anyway not be leaking.
This is technically approved with automatically working pressure reducing valves which are well known in hydraulic systems. But most of these are too big for our pipes. Pictures and examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor. A job for a pipe maker. Until then you could try to put a piece of pipe with a dedicated smaller inside diameter into each bore of the main stock to each drone reed. This reduces the pressure, more to the higher flow at the bigger pressure than at the lower air flow for the lower octave. Worth trying. Should work for a special range of pressure. Diameter just big enough for the lower octave that it does not reduce the pressure for it too much. If that reduces not enough you need a spring operating valve which keeps the pressure to the drone reeds constant independently what happens to the pressure to the chanter.
interesting problem - not solved by pipe makers as far as I know. Ignoring the good points about a loud chanter in sessions where drones are anyway not audible I advise the following. Apart from these the loud chanters do not sound well!
- The problem is the necessary high pressure for the chanter which is too high for the drones.
- The solution would be to reduce the pressure only to the drone reeds and not to fit the drone reeds to the pressure of the chanter. The drone reeds should anyway not be leaking.
This is technically approved with automatically working pressure reducing valves which are well known in hydraulic systems. But most of these are too big for our pipes. Pictures and examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor. A job for a pipe maker. Until then you could try to put a piece of pipe with a dedicated smaller inside diameter into each bore of the main stock to each drone reed. This reduces the pressure, more to the higher flow at the bigger pressure than at the lower air flow for the lower octave. Worth trying. Should work for a special range of pressure. Diameter just big enough for the lower octave that it does not reduce the pressure for it too much. If that reduces not enough you need a spring operating valve which keeps the pressure to the drone reeds constant independently what happens to the pressure to the chanter.
Christian Tietje
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BzzzzT
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
The real solution is to make a set of stable drone reeds that are efficient and use little air. A stable drone reed will not shift under increased pressure. This requires a bit of work, but it can be done. First get your tenor drone with a stable reed. Then make drone reeds for the other two. Each drone should be checked against one another. You want to play them all in unison and increase pressure and drop pressure. If the drone reeds are working correctly they should NOT! waver in pitch or take much air. Beautifully reeded drones are a joy to play! You should not actively have to keep them in tune while playing or rely on tech fixes to try to correct an underlying reed problem in the first place.
If you cannot make cane reeds, try making some artificial reeds for the drones. They are not that hard to make.
Here is a video on how to make some artificial drone reeds by David Daye.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIxufdrnUE
I prefer to use .01 carbon fiber sheet for the tongues. For me, with carbon fiber, I get a better tone/harmonics than cane when you find the right tongue, elevation and aperture. You can cut the carbon fiber with snips. You must also bend the material for artificial reeds to get the right elevation.
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Carbon- ... 12x12.html
- Jason
If you cannot make cane reeds, try making some artificial reeds for the drones. They are not that hard to make.
Here is a video on how to make some artificial drone reeds by David Daye.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIxufdrnUE
I prefer to use .01 carbon fiber sheet for the tongues. For me, with carbon fiber, I get a better tone/harmonics than cane when you find the right tongue, elevation and aperture. You can cut the carbon fiber with snips. You must also bend the material for artificial reeds to get the right elevation.
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Carbon- ... 12x12.html
- Jason
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mike delta
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your input. Some very interesting solutions and well argued points. All worth consideration.
Geoff, you mention the two tubes of 3/16ins dia in the back plate of your hollow stock. I'm trying to visualise that. I checked mine. Just the one tube feeding the drones in the back plate @ 3/8ins dia. Through the centre of that tube is the steel rod (3/16ins dia) with nut and washer connecting to the drone on/off switch. Also no leaks anywhere.
To recap, the chanter requires a hard blown reed. Period. My standard drone set up can't handle that amount of pressure without shutting off. Adding weight to the tongues and increasing the elevation cures the shutting off but the effort required to play chanter and drones is very uncomfortable and tiring
. In an ideal world I would like 2 different pressures. One for the chanter and a lighter one for the drones lol
Regards, Mike
Thanks for your input. Some very interesting solutions and well argued points. All worth consideration.
Geoff, you mention the two tubes of 3/16ins dia in the back plate of your hollow stock. I'm trying to visualise that. I checked mine. Just the one tube feeding the drones in the back plate @ 3/8ins dia. Through the centre of that tube is the steel rod (3/16ins dia) with nut and washer connecting to the drone on/off switch. Also no leaks anywhere.
To recap, the chanter requires a hard blown reed. Period. My standard drone set up can't handle that amount of pressure without shutting off. Adding weight to the tongues and increasing the elevation cures the shutting off but the effort required to play chanter and drones is very uncomfortable and tiring
. In an ideal world I would like 2 different pressures. One for the chanter and a lighter one for the drones lol Regards, Mike
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mike delta
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Jason,
Do you use 0.01 thickness carbon fibre on bass, baritone & tenor drones or just on the tenor.
Regards,
Mike
Do you use 0.01 thickness carbon fibre on bass, baritone & tenor drones or just on the tenor.
Regards,
Mike
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BzzzzT
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Hi Mike,
I use carbon fiber for all my drone reeds now. I have made 100s of cane reeds but I prefer the tone and the total stability of carbon fiber. The carbon fiber composite reed gives a great tone that is pressure stable and takes very little air. You can just cut the sheet with a pair of scissors. Carbon fiber reeds are dead stable once they are set. I make a lot of reeds to support the pipers where I live. My drones can support hard reeds when voicing a new reed as well as easy reeds that have been played in while still remaining stable. You can also use wood for the tongues. I have used basswood in the past with great success. Also if you make reeds for your Hunter chanter, leaving more meat in the center (the spine) of the scrape will provide more rigidness and stability to support an easy reed but still retain the stiffness that the chanter requires in a reed. I use a wooden rod (a 1 inch dowel) with medium grit sandpaper glued to it, allowing me to selectively sand the sides of the scrape.
- Jason
I use carbon fiber for all my drone reeds now. I have made 100s of cane reeds but I prefer the tone and the total stability of carbon fiber. The carbon fiber composite reed gives a great tone that is pressure stable and takes very little air. You can just cut the sheet with a pair of scissors. Carbon fiber reeds are dead stable once they are set. I make a lot of reeds to support the pipers where I live. My drones can support hard reeds when voicing a new reed as well as easy reeds that have been played in while still remaining stable. You can also use wood for the tongues. I have used basswood in the past with great success. Also if you make reeds for your Hunter chanter, leaving more meat in the center (the spine) of the scrape will provide more rigidness and stability to support an easy reed but still retain the stiffness that the chanter requires in a reed. I use a wooden rod (a 1 inch dowel) with medium grit sandpaper glued to it, allowing me to selectively sand the sides of the scrape.
- Jason
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Hans-Joerg
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Just why (for the (bleep)´s sake) wasn´t James Kenna forced to make "Banjo Busters"?
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geoff wooff
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Hans-Joerg wrote:Just why (for the (bleep)´s sake) wasn´t James Kenna forced to make "Banjo Busters"?
Perhaps the Banjo was not invented at that time (or should that be 'should not have been invented' ?)....
No, really it is not the fault of the Banjo but of some Banjo players.
In a session we each want to be able to hear our individual contribution to the music but if the person next to you is playing much louder then it is natural that you will want to increase your volume, if you have an instrument with some dynamic ability. This can lead to a spiraling loudness competition in which the poor old piper is just not going to be able to compete.
So, the problem can be that you, the piper, needs to find just the 'right' session for the volume of your particular set.
Making your pipes 'over loud' is a sure way to obtain ostracism from the other musicians.
Happy New Year Hans-Joerg !!
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Hans-Joerg
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Happy New Year, toogeoff wooff wrote:In a session we each want to be able to hear our individual contribution to the music but if the person next to you is playing much louder then it is natural that you will want to increase your volume, if you have an instrument with some dynamic ability. This can lead to a spiraling loudness competition in which the poor old piper is just not going to be able to compete.
So, the problem can be that you, the piper, needs to find just the 'right' session for the volume of your particular set.
Making your pipes 'over loud' is a sure way to obtain ostracism from the other musicians.
Sorry - I love cynicism. This could be called "Akustisches Wettrüsten" (acoustic arms race).
I heard that the idea of session playing did not come into being before the London diaspora of Irish people after World War II - from where it came to Ireland in the 60s. It is generally regarded as the normal traditional way of playing nowadays but I think it hasn´t been. Lots of problems that pipes cannot cope "too well" with seem to have occured since. Exactly A 440 Htz and ultraloud CP-chanters in combination with extremely quiet drones or generally "switching off" of the rest completely (while everybody wants a full set for the sake of representation and complaination to the pipemaker
) are just some of them. I think it is high time for us to think about this.
Last edited by Hans-Joerg on Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceann Cromtha
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
There's a rumor going around that there is a secret warrant that was issued by the Acoustic War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague for certain chanter/reed combinations created by our good comrade Uillmann. He crafted a device made of highly enriched boxwood and cane that could totally vaporize a banjo and obliterate an accordion. 
(Happy New Year, Mark!) 
(Happy New Year, Mark!) -
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Re: Efficient drone reeds
Shepherd (the GHB mfg) tone regulators equalize the pressure accross the 3 drones of the ghb through a system of dual air filters and a number of plastic balls calculated to a precise weight. Used in combination with this mfg's reeds, I have found over the years this idea works exactly as its intended. The pressure is higher but the airflow is lower, and does not fluxuate as much with the bag's "fill-squeeze" cycle. there is some tone loss,(minimal imho) but, stability and the ability to stay in tune over a longer period of time are gained. Wild dog that I am, when I press more to obtain the high B on a highland chanter, this drone config remains on pitch, & does not shut off: very pertinent for Uilleannmike delta wrote:Hi,
Is there a way of restricting the amount of air and air pressure to the drone reeds without any resulting degrade in tone.
Basically I am looking at a system whereby a set of drone reeds are as economical as possible with air yet somehow restricting the rush of extra air and pressure when the extra pressure is increased on the bag when playing the chanter in the upper octave. There may be a simple solution or something more complex such as a restricting valve.
In addition to this, has anyone come up with a set of composite drone reeds that are really super efficient with air?
Anyone any ideas?
Mike
How this kind of system could be feasible for the UP is beyond me; best I can surmise is that it wold entail some kind of radical approach to mainstock construction, perhaps drone bore redesign, and development of composite reeds that perform optimally under the 'tone-regulators'. GHB players complain about this idea constantly: until they have to pick up their pipes after a 30 min hiatus and be on pitch wiht locked in drones. It is the best system for those needs I have encountered thus far.