Rudall Rose and Carte

[gariwerd]

Hi all
I have just acquired a Rudall Rose and Carte boehm cocus flute, serial number 6523. I was wondering if anybody having Robert Bigio's book,
'Rudall Rose and Carte, The Art of the Flute in Britain', would be good enough to help me date its manufacture.
Cheers, John

[Neil B]

As far as I can work out the flutes were numbered when made...6520 is a D piccolo made 1 November 1920....and 6521...6526 & 6527 are Eb piccolos made ön 1st - 15 & 16th November1920 so I'd guess in the 1st week of November. I have no interest in boehm system flutes & note you wrote Ruddal Rose & Carte, so perhaps this info above is wrong in relation to your flute, as it is only Rudall Carte by this time & from where I have gathered the numbers.

[jemtheflute]

Yes, Neil, wrong serial number sequence. The piccolos were quite separate, at least in the RC&Co. era.

John, I have Bigio's book but am in work. I'll check for you later/tomorrow.

[Steampacket]

Am in London now and bought Bigio's book yesterday,have it packed for the return journey tomorrow can also check if you want. Neil B has it right though. I bought the book for £67.50 from All Flutes Plus on Warren Street

[daveogden]

We'd need more information about your flute. Is it stamped Rudall, Rose & Carte or just Rudall & Carte? What address is given? Is it a conical Boehm flute or cylindrical? Unfortunately, just dating a flute from the serial number is not often straight forward.

From p. 265; "Serial marks and numbers by year, from 1869 to 1939" "Rudall, Rose & Carte, and later Rudall Carte, had several number sequences for their flutes: simple system flutes; modern metal flutes; modern wooden and ebonite flutes; Radcliff flutes; and modern piccolos. In addition, they had a separate number sequence for simple-system band flutes, which have not been included in this book." ..."Some early advanced conical flutes were numbered in the same sequence as simple-system flutes. Examples are the conical Welch model flute, serial number 6570 (p.250, dated 1870) and the early conical Radcliff flute, serial number 6602 (p.242, dated 1871)."

So, if you have one of these earlier flutes, which were stamped Rudall, Rose & Carte and had the address at 20, Charing Cross, then it's probably from 1870. The Rudall & Carte stamping began in 1872. The address changed to 23, Berners Street in 1878. If it's a "modern wooden flute" stamped Rudall Carte with the later address and with number 6523, it would be from 1923.

I hope I'm reading the book correctly! It's a fun read, definitely.

[jemtheflute]

Aha, Dave beat us to it. I wouldn't argue with his post at all.

[Neil B]

I would and will and later be back to you Jem, if this proves to be a later stamped RC & Co only flute ) You mentioned piccolos are another kettle of fish....Then these Eb FLUTES... 6517 & 6518 made Sep 1920 went to the RMSM Kneller Hall and the other to the 6th Iniskillings, 6525 is another Eb flute made "17 Nov 1920" lastly a Bb flute 6529 14 Dec 1920...now before it kicks of with... "but those are these are infernal band flutes:-)) You'll note that the 1st two Eb flutes noted above, went to Regimental bands, not the lowly fife and drums....

So my question is, where did Dave get 1923 from for the number originally asked about 6523 ???

Maybe the OP can now rejoin the thread and let us know what he has after all, as this is turning into being a train spotting exercise LoL As I originally wrote is it a RC & Co only, or it is as he stated & then I'm out of it, as I know nothing about the earlier flutes.

[jemtheflute]

So my question is, where did Dave get 1923 from for the number originally asked about 6523 ???

Yes, Neil, wrong serial number sequence. The piccolos were quite separate, at least in the RC&Co. era.

I think you have only the "Small Flutes" (Band Flutes) entries. There are inevitably duplications of numbers in the different sequences. Clearly from the numbers and descriptions you quote those are not from the same sequence as the OP flute.

Robert Bigio's book has tables of serial numbers for the different classes of flute as defined (and occasionally altered or merged) by the firm, mostly by earliest # recorded in the given year. In the table for modern Böhm flutes (after 1869) 1923 starts with #6388 and 1924 starts with #6547. That sequence is separate from the old 8-key concert flute sequence, from the Band Flutes/"Small Flutes" sequence (see Dave's quote from the book!), from the Modern Piccolos sequence and from the Radcliff Model sequence. Simples.

Re: the Eb flutes you mention, I don't know whether Böhm system Eb/D# (or Db/C#!) flutes were listed in the "Modern" Flute serial sequence or the Band Flute one. I'd suspect it likely that they'd have been in the former, regardless of to whom they were sold. Doubtless Robert B knows or could find out. Military bands/men might have been using either system, or one of the hybrids such as the Guards Model (also a "Modern" type), in the inter-war era. I'd think it most likely that simple system low Ebs would have been in the Band Flute sequence.

Yes, we really do need the OP to come back in here.

Also cf this recent eBay sale of #6678, from 1924 according to Bigio's data (incorrectly attributed by the vendor to 1926-7).

[gariwerd]

Many thanks for the investigative efforts you people have put in. I see I was not entirely accurate in my description initially. It is not a Rudall Rose and Carte flute but a Rudall, Carte and Co flute. Sorry if this has caused confusion. The address on it is 23 Berners St, London. It is a cylindrical Boehm not a conical. I'm sure its not a band flute. Cheers, John

[gariwerd]

Just to add. I just looked at the recent ebay sale link in Jem's preceding post and my flute and case look identical to that. If it is early 1920's then can I take it that its intonation will be modern pitch 440?

[Terry McGee]

Looks like late 1923 (1923 includes numbers 6388-6546).

You would expect modern pitch by then but best to compare lengths with the table "Cylindrical multi-key flutes " about 2/3rds down http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/flutelengths.htm

Terry

[Neil B]

For Jem... in answer to this band flute scenario the two Eb flutes I mentioned above 6517 & 6518... This is the the entry for both....24 Sep 1920 Ebonite Boehm flute, shut G# GS keys. These flutes are in sequence with the simple 6 (band flutes:-)) & 8 keyed flutes numbers as are many other Boehm flutes.

For the OP... I never wrote your flute was a (oh dear) "band flute" only from what I have gleaned it may have been made in Nov 1920. As for confusing the issue you now have the various dates to play with & "you should have gone to spec-savers" jump to my mind LoL.

1)..... or one of the hybrids such as the Guards Model (also a "Modern" type), in the inter-war era. I'd think it most likely that simple system low Ebs would have been in the Band Flute sequence.

2)... I see I was not entirely accurate in my description initially. It is not a Rudall Rose and Carte flute but a Rudall, Carte and Co flute. Sorry if this has caused confusion. The address on it is 23 Berners St, London. It is a cylindrical Boehm not a conical. I'm sure its not a band flute. Cheers, John

[jemtheflute]

So, all is revealed.....
At that period it is far more likely to be CP, but it's not automatically guaranteed. What is the sounding length? It needs to be between 598-603mm for CP.

[gariwerd]

Is the sounding length measured from the middle of the embouchure hole to the tip of the flute with the tuning slide completely closed? What does CP stand for?

[jemtheflute]

Is the sounding length measured from the middle of the embouchure hole to the tip of the flute with the tuning slide completely closed? What does CP stand for?

Centre of embouchure to level with far, open, foot end, yes.
"CP" = Concert Pitch (A=440Hz).