Origin of glottal stops?

[triplearth]

Coming to ITM from a different discipline (jazz, western classical or whatever) one of the most immediate differences seems to be the use of glottal stops in preference to the tongue. Insofar as the repertoire and technique on the flute relates to the pipes, then I guess that makes sense. But the same emphasis on glottal stopping doesn't seem to apply to the whistle, and the connection between the pipes and the whistle seems even more direct.

Having played quite a number of dodgy flutes over the years, one thing I've noticed is that once you've got a note, it's a lot easier to keep it if you start the next one with a glottal or a finger ornament, rather than the tongue. If it's true that the dissemination of simple system flutes in ITM was because they became available as the Boehm system took hold and richer players traded up, could it be that today's concentration on glottals is at least as much to do with an accident of history as it is with a preferred style?

Sorry if my first post is a bit obtuse, but it's bugging me.

[Casey Burns]

Uh oh!

[jemtheflute]

Huh!

[triplearth]

Oh well, I suppose I should just quit while I'm ahead. Or not.

[MTGuru]

*Ahem* ... *cough* *cough*

I always enjoyed Glottis Knight, though the Pips were hard to swallow.

[triplearth]

Yep, I quit.

A pity though, now I'll never know if my question was complete bollocks or ... No, don't answer that.

[benhall.1]

Assuming you're still around, triplearth ...

I don't think it would be an accident of history, though I'm fairly convinced that glottal stopping as a technique for articulating notes is an old technique, right enough. I think I've given Jem's copy of Quantz back to him, so I can't check exactly what Quantz wrote on this subject, but in there there is a chapter on articulating notes. There are descriptions of a lot of different tonguing techniques, using the letters 't', 'd' and several others. There is also, IIRC, a description of something which I remember thinking must be glottal stopping. Jem, are you able to check what's written there on this subject?

So, what I believe is that, for the sort of flutes we play, in the Baroque era, there would have been a lot of different techniques, some of which we still use today in Irish music (like glottal stopping, and also 'flattement' for instance, which is finger vibrato). But some of the Baroque techniques do seem to have faded away. Some of the tonguing, for instance.

[MTGuru]

Assuming you're still around, triplearth ...

You're no fun, Ben. No fun at all.

Now I'll never be able to wonder if Glottis Knight ever performed with guitarist Al Viola.

[jemtheflute]

Stop it! (No tongues!)

[triplearth]

But some of the Baroque techniques do seem to have faded away. Some of the tonguing, for instance.

... and one of the reasons they've faded is that at the beginning of the last century, there were a lot of players around who were trying to get good notes out of bad, pawn-shop flutes?

If that's the case then, for me anyway, it kind of throws a different light on the current status of glottal stopping in the repertoire of techniques that we use for ITM.

And to keep this in context, my drop-dead favourite player of the moment is Conal O Grada, so I'm not criticising the technique, I'm just trying to understand how its arisen.

[jemtheflute]

Ok, if we're trying to be serious ( ), I really don't think there's any mileage in your theory about glottalling somehow being easier than tonguing on a duff instrument. Heaven knows, I've played enough wrecks, and if they'll make a sound at all I've never noticed it being harder get a sound with tongued or finger articulation or with none. I'll see about Quantz later (offhand, think you still have that one, Ben), but SFAIK nothing like glottalling was included in the range of Baroque articulation techniques, much wider than the modern mainstream classical palette (palate?! ) though that was. I don't know what the origin of glottalling in ITM fluting was, nor am I aware of it in other traditions (not saying I think it isn't used, just that I don't know). I also suspect that its current prominence/fashionability is a fairly recent thing and that although there are examples of "old geezers" using it, there are also plenty without, or at least with little sign if it.

[david_h]

Yeah, well, I reckon its not used much elsewhere because its hard to describe (in the books) or demonstrate (in lessons) or test (in exams) 'cos you can't see (or always hear) what's happening. Try asking here about whether a player is tonguing or using glottal stops and the local experts will disagree (I did ask - about John Doonan).

I find that Conal O Grada's book covers it in a very convincing way though

[LorenzoFlute]

Both John McKenna and Tom Morrison (the first two, I think, that did Irish flute recordings back in the 1920s) use glottal stops. It is said that McKenna played in the "same" style you could find in his native Ireland, which means that glottal stopping was likely to be find already after 1850 (?). I wonder if one reason to use glottal stops was to make those old, cheap and cracked flutes sound at all. If a flute is leaking, you need to find a way to force the sound out of it...

[triplearth]

Ok, if we're trying to be serious ( )

Yes, sorry, but don't worry, I'm sure there'll be plenty other opportunities if I carry on posting.

But for now ...

I've definitely noticed a difference between tonguing and glottal stopping while trying to produce a note on a duff instrument. As my post makes embarrassingly clear, I'm a relative newcomer to the playing of ITM as opposed to its listening but, irregularly though at times professionally, I've played flute for the last 45 years.

For me, the concentrated pulse that a glottal stop requires seems to have a softer entry that doesn't disrupt the airflow quite as much as a tongued 'du' and, even on a borderline leaky instrument, this seems to allow me to keep the notes and flow.

As regards other traditions then I'm pretty certain that the two most important Indian flautists, Pannalal Ghosh and Hariprasad Chaurasia used and use glottal stopping as part of their technical armoury.

[triplearth]

If a flute is leaking, you need to find a way to force the sound out of it...