Improvisation

bufo · Post by **bufo** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:16 pm

I used to play the guitar alot. I never was much into jazz but many of my friends were. The best jazz players could improvise a new set of notes around an existing key. The song was never the same, and changed everytime they played it, although it had the same feel to it. I never aquired this talent and would like to learn how on my whistle. Does anyone have any advice on how to learn the technique of inprovisation? Any help / websites would be useful.

[ This Message was edited by: bufo on 2003-01-20 15:34 ]

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:22 pm

bufo, we don't improvise here. We learn the tunes by heart and then only play minor variations and ornaments. No jazz here.

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:31 pm

I always failed miserably at improvisation. Now I play whistle.

Robin

bufo · Post by **bufo** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:32 pm

I was not talking about jazz. More or less what I was trying to get at is how to make minor variations. Or more or less if I want to play a tune but not exactly one i know. A new one more or less. It is hard to explain

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:33 pm

With my very limited musical theory knowledge,I would say that most 'Jazz' is basically built around chord structures,often the straight ahead 1-4-5 sequence of the blues,or often of popular songs(think how many melodies and variations Charlie Parker spun out of 'I got rhythm's chords).I'm sure there are plenty of method books out there-sorry can't name any! See,told you my knowledge was limited!

theweirdscotsman · Post by **theweirdscotsman** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:36 pm

Claudine-I would not say that there is no jazz here. I believe that once you know the tune and if for example you are playing with a band with several other melody instruments the flute or whistle player can feel free to inprovise. Listen to Flook and Brian Finnegan. If you are playing solo- only minor variations generally. If i dont ever improvise I get bored with the song. There's a time and place for everything i believe. In response to learning HOW to improvise..just listen to songs you maybe already know and then find out what notes you can hold out and change them with the chords. then you can incorporate those long notes into the tune. then you can add ornaments to these notes, etc. It's difficult for me to explain. I use my tongue quite a bit when i improvise to give it an edge. This may be a way to start. Otherwise, just listen and experiment.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:39 pm

I'm sure there must be a lot of books on the subject. Lee Konitz teaches a 10-step method for improvisation. A bit of it is described on the web but it's sketchy.

http://www.melmartin.com/html_pages/Int ... onitz.html

There's some guitar material here and maybe the ideas are applicable.

http://guitar.about.com/library/weekly/aa051899.htm

There's a part II to this article.

Improvising around the blues is possible on the whistle. Real jazz is more difficult though, because frequently the tunes change keys. The tune that Konitz uses as an illustration could be called All the Keys You Are. This means you have to have your chromatic chops really together. Even on a tune which doesn't change keys jazz musicians will play more or less chromatically, depending on their own style and predilictions.

Steve

ps I wrote my message while you were writing yours about not wanting to play jazz!

[ This Message was edited by: SteveK on 2003-01-20 15:40 ]

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:41 pm

Claudine, I think I understand what Bufo means. It's not necessarily "Irish" but the traditional tunes that end up in contra dances undergo variations that might be termed (and in a sense are) improvisations.

After all, when you stay on the same tune 7 or 8 times (or more) through before switching to the next in the medley, you can get pretty bored and make a few melodic changes in self-defense.

One of the fiddle players I admire made it very clear that when you're doing this for a dance, you can't change the length of the tune (because it fits with the dance) and you have to return to the melodic line periodically so the caller and the dancers don't get confused.

But in those confines, with those variations I've done, you have someone keeping the beat, keeping the chord progression going, and you may be even playing counterpoint of a sort against another player who is sticking to the melody. You can hold notes longer (skipping a bunch of short ones) or add a bunch of short notes if there's a long note marked for a roll you want to skip or do something else to.

I'm sure more experienced players will have their own approaches and opinions, so I just offer this up as a point of view.

M

bufo · Post by **bufo** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:46 pm

Thanks for all the help. I am not against one style or another, I just didn't want to make the impression that I only wanted to play jazz. I only asked this because of a recent trip back home I pulled out my whistle instead of guitar with the old band. And tried to do the best I could. And for the most part the whistle complimented the guitar very well. I just would like to learn how to play better in a group of other intruments folk or mainstream. I just like playing th whistle it has a relaxing effect. On top of all this I was thinking about common tunes like the irish washerwoman. The one thing most jigs have in common is they make you want to move. If i could duplicate this I could play those types of tunes with a large variation, and always have something that feels similar but is new and exciting.

Wizzer · Post by **Wizzer** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:54 pm

On 2003-01-20 15:16, bufo wrote:
I used to play the guitar allot. I never was much into jazz but many of my friends were. The best jazz players could improv1>[ This Message was edited by: buffo on 2003-01-20 15:34 ]

Get Jerry O'Sullian CD The Gift shows a wide variety of styles. The jazz tune clear Blue Sky Jerry plays on the pipes and does a marvelous job. I believe the technique for improvisation comes from a familiarity with your instrument and your ability to express what you feel in the particular piece of music. This is all talent (that I don't have) but having spent many evening in the Jazz club watching people jam and being lucky enough to be there when a group of musicians who just click. The only thing sweater would be to be one of those clicking.
If your are ever in Westchester NY check out this place on Wednesday nights Jam night you pay $4.00 to listen or play and there are some world class musician from time to time. No food no drink just music.
WESTCHESTER JAZZ WORKSHOP PRESENTS....
ONE STATION PLAZA
38 N. Division St.
Peekskill, NY
(914) 736-1053

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:55 pm

It sounds like you are really talking about playing by ear and ornamentation. Playing by ear is best to develop by trying to pick out tunes on your whistle until you get a feel for how each note sounds. It gets easier with time. As far as ornamentation, there are some web sites that deal with this:

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/

http://www.whistletutor.com/

http://www.sessioneer.com/default.asp

http://www.whistleworkshop.co.uk/whistle.htm

And there's this site I haven't tried yet because my computer can't handle it yet, but others have recommended it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/folk/acoust ... unch.shtml

Hope this is useful!!

Robin

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:01 pm

Another approach would be to study the tunes at this website.
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... netoc.html

These are transcriptions of tunes, mainly on whistle, of performances made by notable whistle players. Some of these tunes have a considerable amount of variation in them. Compare them with a more standard version of the same tune from a tune book. You'll see some of the variations that trad players put in. The transcriptions were done by some people whose names you'll see around here.

Steve

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:17 pm

Contrary to what Claudine suggests, variation is essential in Irish music.
Follow the link suggested by SteveK above and look up for example the Boyne Hunt, Rolling in the Ryegrass, Maid behind the bar all by Kieran Collins, Willie Clancy's Maid on the Green. These all employ a considerable amount of variation from one playing to the next and hopefully they will help you along a bit.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:53 pm

I guess improvisation is what I
like best. I play all sorts of music,
not just celtic. A lot of time I
play with musicians where somebody
introduces a tune,
we play it together a few times,
then we go around in a circle and everybody
gets to improvise. All sorts of
tunes get played, rock, blues,
celtic, fiddle tunes. If one
wants to improvise on the
whistle, it's helpful to
break out of any one type
of music--playing jigs and
reels lightening fast
probably isn't the best
place to start.

Harmony helps. That is, if you're
accompanying a tune and there's
a lovely harmony you can play with
it, then, when it's your turn to
improvise, play that harmony--
it's a variant of the tune,
and then vary that. There's your
improvisation. For many
tunes there's a set of notes
that can't go wrong, in the sense
that if you play one of them it
will sound alright. Once you find
that set of notes, you can improvise
using them.

Often there's a deep feeling
that comes from a melody, and the
improvisation explores that.
Finally improvisation is the sort
of thing that you just do. Off
the deep end and into the drink.
If you crash, well, that's OK.
There's next time. If you feel
music deeply, let the feeling
take you and play the feeling.
It's the last legal high. Best

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:46 am

you could try learning one tune by ear from a CD by a good solo musician and then play along with it and you'll notice how many different ways he plays the same passage. Then move on to another tune. I'd recommend Paddy Keenan, I think he's probably one of the most spontaneous musicians when it comes to variation and improvisation.

Also try lilting tunes that you know and see what pops out of the mind, then try to apply it to the instrument.

A third approach is to keep playing the same tune over and over until you're bored with it and then try whatever seems to work.