Left Index Pain & switching to an Irish flute

[LynnB]

Another one to file under the "newbie" topic.

I took private lessons on a boehm/concert style flute for a number of years. I fell out of playing when I went through some life changes but I picked up some whistles a few months ago, and the more I play them, the more I miss my flute.

One of the issues I had when I did play though was really bad pain where my left index finger served as a balance point. The base of my finger would be red and indented by the end of a practice session. Just trying to consciously relax during playing wasn't enough to remedy it. I remember asking my teacher at the time about it, but she didn't really have much to say. I did some reading over the weekend, and I think some of my index finger/joint pain could be attributed to trying to overbalance the flute forward to compensate for the weight of the keys wanting to roll back. I pulled out my much abused and neglected Armstrong crapola flute and watched in front of a mirror and I could definitely see that I was trying to stabilize the flute by really digging in with that left index finger.

So my first question is, are there any former Boehm flute players who transitioned over to a keyless (or less-keyed) flute and noticed an improvement with left index finger pain? If I had pain before, should I chalk it up to the flute not being a good instrument for me, or is this kind of thing correctable if I suck it up and really work on posture/grip/etc.?

My second question is how different is the stretch between keys? Is this a big adjustment? I have average size hands for a woman, and I don't have trouble covering holes, even on lower whistles, but I am concerned about the actual finger stretch being difficult coming from a Boehm style flute where the keys are much easier to reach.

I'm sure the obvious answer is "try one out in person" but I don't really know of any place locally to try out Irish flutes.

Anyway, any advice is welcome. I know this forum isn't for Boehm/concert flute players, but I am assuming a fair number of you have dabbled with one, at least judging by the flute/whistle collection thread. I still haven't completely ruled out a new concert flute either - the cheap Armstrong I have is pretty much unplayable and not worth the money to fix. Do a lot of people play both, or do the embouchure differences make this unwise?

[jemtheflute]

Hi LynnB
First off, I'd say "go for it". The balance issue of a Bohm flute - its tendency to roll towards the rods - is significant. So is the relative thinness of the tube where the L hand contacts it - Google "bo-pep" to read about a popular solution. It's less of an issue on a simple system or keyless flute, and of course the wooden tube is far fatter, so the angles are different. But it's also probably heavier..... Part of the problem with your past experience was probably down to general improper support of the flute, probably mostly in the R hand, thus putting undue strain on the L. Yes, it should be correctable.

Re: reaching the holes - if you're OK on low whistle you will assuredly be OK on flute because most folk actually find the spans, especially of the L hand, easier than the low whistle.

Embouchure - differences - no worries there either - you may find a wooden flute with an elliptical embouchure hole harder to play well to begin with, but once you find your way with it it will have benefits for your Bohm playing if you revive that.

You may find reading through a couple of help-sheets I have written helpful.
Flute Hold
Flute Embouchure

[LynnB]

Thanks Jem, I will read through those links. I really have only messed around a little bit with the Low D, it's my most recent addition to the collection. I can reach the holes using piper's grip, but my main issue with the low D is that just too damn long - my right wrist has to bend at an uncomfortable angle to get down there. I guess I have t-rex arms. I'm sure it will get better in time, but I'm guessing a flute has to be worlds easier to deal with. The point I was trying to make is that while my hands are average, my fingertips are fleshy enough to close off bigger holes. From what I've read it seems some people struggle with that too. I'm more concerned about reach/ergonomics.

I guess I'm worried if I go with an Irish flute and then discover the reach is extreme, I will be wishing I had got a concert flute instead. And if I get a concert flute and still have the issues with stabilizing it, I'll wish I had gotten a lightweight delrin keyless flute. Probably just best to buy both! Haha.

[jemtheflute]

Delrin and light-weight........ probably not! Investigate Doug Tipple's offerings as an affordable way in. Light too.

[Gobae]

First the disclaimer that I played Boehm for a mere 2 years, and I only just started the Irish flute 6 months ago (and have no teacher). So I'm certainly no font of wisdom about this.

But what I've experienced is that the weight and balance points between my Boehm and my Burns Folk Flute are significantly different. The FF is much thicker, lighter, and since it has no keys my left thumb does most of the work not the knuckle on my first finger.

[LynnB]

Delrin and light-weight........ probably not! Investigate Doug Tipple's offerings as an affordable way in. Light too.

Guess that shows you how little I know. I assumed a plastic flute would be pretty light. Surely it's still lighter than a concert flute though, right?

Gobae - thanks for the info. The Folk Flute is another one I am considering, but I'm thinking a maintenance free material might be better to start with.

[jim stone]

Delrin and light-weight........ probably not! Investigate Doug Tipple's offerings as an affordable way in. Light too.

Guess that shows you how little I know. I assumed a plastic flute would be pretty light. Surely it's still lighter than a concert flute though, right?

Gobae - thanks for the info. The Folk Flute is another one I am considering, but I'm thinking a maintenance free material might be better to start with.

Two things.

1. The Folk Flute is an especially good choice for you, IMO. Get one in boxwood. These are especially light. Also Casey's
flutes (Casey Burns) are famous for ergonomics and being easy to handle. So the FF would seem to minimize the
possibility of the difficulties you mention. Also they are quite good flutes. Also they take minimal maintenance, most wooden flutes do. The chief thing you need to look out for is low humidity, especially if you live in a very dry place and/or
are using central heating in winter. The solution is to store the flute in a plastic container with a damp cloth or damp
sponge. Wooden flutes are higher maintenance than plastic flutes, but (unless you are under extraordinary conditions)
still easy to care for. Finally if the flute is not for you you can readily sell it and get back most of your money,
maybe all of it.

2. The problem you have on the low whistle will not improve, because probably your rt hand position needs to be
adjusted. As you are playing it now, you may injure yourself. The way to do it:

Straighten the right wrist, don't bend it. Angle your rt hand across the whistle so that First pad of R3 (ring finger)
covers the hole [this is the part of finger on the other side of the finger nail) and R1 (index) covers its hole in the middle of the finger or thereabouts, so the end of the finger extends well beyond the hole. This angled grip keeps the wrist straight:
if the wrist is bent you invite trouble and anyhow discomfort.

Good luck

[Gobae]

1. The Folk Flute is an especially good choice for you, IMO. Get one in boxwood. These are especially light. Also Casey's flutes (Casey Burns) are famous for ergonomics and being easy to handle.

Oh yes! I forgot to mention that mine is the "small hand" (for hands with a thumb to pinky spread less than 7") in boxwood and it's wicked easy to cover all the holes with minimal stretch. And other than a swab out after playing and an occasional oil I don't do anything special for care.

[LynnB]

Gobae & Jim, thanks to you both for your thoughtful replies.

2. The problem you have on the low whistle will not improve, because probably your rt hand position needs to be
adjusted. As you are playing it now, you may injure yourself. The way to do it:

Straighten the right wrist, don't bend it. Angle your rt hand across the whistle so that First pad of R3 (ring finger)
covers the hole [this is the part of finger on the other side of the finger nail) and R1 (index) covers its hole in the middle of the finger or thereabouts, so the end of the finger extends well beyond the hole. This angled grip keeps the wrist straight:
if the wrist is bent you invite trouble and anyhow discomfort.

Good luck

I am using piper's grip on the low D, but the wrist bending is caused by the fact that the holes are so far down, not the finger stretch. It's more of an arm reach issue, not as much as a finger stretch. (Which is not to say that the finger reach is ideal, but it's a Low D, so having to use Piper's Grip was completely expected and something I'm adjusting to.) If I move the whistle up say an inch or two (where I can no longer blow into it - unless I play with my nose!) my fingers and wrist are in a natural, relaxed position. But when I have to move it down to get my mouth on the mouth piece, I end up bending my wrist in order to move it down low enough to blow into it. It feels better if I really lean forward and kind of arch over it - the arm reach is then ok and my wrist can straighten out, but that's a position that brings it's own host of problems as the posture itself is terrible and I can't really read music on the stand.

I was looking some more at the Folk Flute options and I'm leaning towards the smaller hand model. When I do the ruler test from Casey's website, my hand span is just a breath over 7 inches when it's relaxed. I can get to 7.5in with a little bit of stretch and if I really try, I can do 8, but that's when the stretching starts to feel uncomfortable. I'm guessing that puts me at the borderline. I'm just curious if the small-hand versions are harder to sell if I end up deciding it's not for me.

[jim stone]

[/quote] I'm just curious if the small-hand versions are harder to sell if I end up deciding it's not for me.[/quote]

Possibly but I don't think it will make a big difference. The FF is a flute many beginners go for, and they often
have concerns that their hands may be too small. Also there's no reason why someone with bigger hands
can't play a small hands flute.

As to your own case, you might call Casey and ask his advice. His flutes are generally comfortable to finger.
Like most flutemakers, he wants to be helpful and is approachable.

[O'Muirgheasain]

@ LynnB

Of the Boehm flute, could your "balance" issues have to do with the position of your right hand thumb?

Of simple system flutes, have you ever tried a physically shorter flute, such as an F flute?

[psychodonald]

I play both Boehm and "Irish Flute". Had problems similar to what you describe w/ the Boehm Flute and my grip (left hand). I think that Jim Stone's comments make good sense. I have two Burns flutes, the Folk Flute in Boxwood and a (6 keyed) model in Boxwood. Love them, and play everyday, no problem. At least, I would call Casey Burns and discuss with him what is going on, he's a pro and a great fellow to deal with---can't hurt.

[LynnB]

@ LynnB

Of the Boehm flute, could your "balance" issues have to do with the position of your right hand thumb?

Of simple system flutes, have you ever tried a physically shorter flute, such as an F flute?

As far as the first question goes, perhaps. I am still reading about flute grips and I just read recently that it can be helpful to have the right thumb higher up, more along the side (back side that is) of the flute rahter than under the bottom, which is usually where my thumb is. My thumb also extends a bit beyond the F key, and in my reading it said it should be between the F and E keys. I'm thinking about trying one of those thumbport things. Perhaps I'm overcompensating for a lack of right hand stability by death-gripping with the left index joint.

As for the second question, I haven't tried ANY simple system flutes. I'm thinking about just ordering an offset Tipple just to even see how I like it. If I order a Folk Flute, I would really like to order it in mopane and I understand there is currently a bit of delay for that wood.

Semi-off topic, but I recently purchased the 3-volume ebook (PDF) version of The Art of Playing the Flute by Roger Mather. It is sold (exclusively, I believe) on flutist Jennifer Cluff's website - http://jennifercluff.blogspot.ca/2011/1 ... flute.html

The book is primarily for boehm flute players, but it's encyclopedic and the entire book is just about technique. I have only started thumbing through it, but there doesn't appear to be any written exercises, just instructions on practice technique. It is really an impressive set of books. I believe the print version is out of print, and Jennifer was granted permission by the author to reproduce it in ebook form and sell it on her website. The PDF is perfect quality, and it has a printing release so you can either print what you want or take it to a copy shop to be spiral bound. The first volume is about breath control, the second about embouchure, and the third concerns "Posture, Fingers, Resonances, Tonguing, Vibrato".

While it's not specifically geared towards simple system flutes, I think there's a lot of great information in the three volumes that would also apply to Irish flute players. For $22CND I think it's well worth the investment. Just thought I'd mention it here in case anyone else is interested. Jennifer is going on a vacation so she will be briefly halting orders between Dec. 1 - 15th, but other than that you just PayPal her and she e-mails it the same day.

[jemtheflute]

As far as the first question goes, perhaps. I am still reading about flute grips and I just read recently that it can be helpful to have the right thumb higher up, more along the side (back side that is) of the flute rahter than under the bottom, which is usually where my thumb is. My thumb also extends a bit beyond the F key, and in my reading it said it should be between the F and E keys. I'm thinking about trying one of those thumbport things. Perhaps I'm overcompensating for a lack of right hand stability by death-gripping with the left index joint.

Did you have a look at my Flute Hold document (linked in my first post above), Lynn? It deals with the R thumb in particular.

From what you've written above, I am convinced that that is going to prove to be a major part of your difficulty. It will be exacerbated on Bohm flute by the uneven weight distribution whereby the way the mechanism is mounted causes the flute to tend to roll back towards the player unless a good hold and posture are found - with precidsely the ill-effects you have described. You can somewhat alleviate that issue by turning the flute body (rolling it out) a little in such a way that the rod-axles are higher, nearer a balance-point, and you have to arch your R-hand fingers over them more to get the pads of the top joints cleanly on their keys - and drawing your thumb back to get it to push out and achieve the 3-point pressure support system goes with that. You may also have to turn the head joint in a bit to compensate at your embouchure.

[O'Muirgheasain]

As far as the first question goes, perhaps. I am still reading about flute grips and I just read recently that it can be helpful to have the right thumb higher up, more along the side (back side that is) of the flute rahter than under the bottom, which is usually where my thumb is. My thumb also extends a bit beyond the F key, and in my reading it said it should be between the F and E keys. I'm thinking about trying one of those thumbport things. Perhaps I'm overcompensating for a lack of right hand stability by death-gripping with the left index joint.

Yes, along the backside of the flute is more or less where your thumb-tip should be, not underneath the flute. Picture your chin and the tip of your RH thumb as pushing in exactly the same direction. That might not be exactly right for you, but that is a good place to begin.

Tuck your RH thumb under the palm of your hand so that the tip of it is about halfway between your first and second RH fingers.

And then flatten the back of your right hand, which allows the fingers to spread out sideways.

As for the second question, I haven't tried ANY simple system flutes. I'm thinking about just ordering an offset Tipple just to even see how I like it. If I order a Folk Flute, I would really like to order it in mopane and I understand there is currently a bit of delay for that wood.

Believe it or not, the Boehm flute is a highly modified version of the original simple-system flute.

Never mind what sort of wood, but be concerned about the reputation of the flute maker.

BTW, Doug Tipple is an expert at making flutes. And some talk between the two of you could work well.

Edit: Ask Doug about a simple-system flute in the key of F. That flute might fit you perfectly.