Standard Notation

[Gobae]

I'm reading through Grey Larsen's "Essential Guide to Irish Flute" and was wondering if his new ornament notation is widely used? Or is it predominantly for use only in his book as an aid to explain ITM ornaments?

[jemtheflute]

I don't have GL's book/don't know what notation conventions he uses, but familiarity with many tune collection books suggests there is no clear standard. Brendan Breathnach prescribed his own symbols in the famous Ceol Rince series of books, and many other compilers have done similarly, and there's an older though not very helpful (!) habit of classically trained collectors/publishers to use or adapt classical grace note notations. The only fairly universal symbol is the tilde for a roll or roll-substitute such as a cran.

Generally when notation-recording or publishing tunes it may be thought better to eschew all notation of ornamentation because not only will application of ornaments vary through repeats of a tune but different instruments will use different ornaments/techniques and have different places where they have technical limitations or special requirements. Breathnach expounds upon this in the notes to his books - and justifies having some notation of ornamentation in that he was at least in part notating specific performances by individual players, so wanted to represent what he heard them do as well as to guide interpretation.

However, if in a teaching/learning situation you want/need to notate ornamentation, well, sure, you need a set of symbols whose meaning is clear.

[Terry McGee]

Here's Breandan's intro, as mentioned by Jem...

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/CeolRince1.htm

It illustrates how the various instruments approach rolls on various notes.

Terry

[Blayne Chastain]

I came to the conclusion while at UL (University of Limerick) that I needed a system to quickly notate ornamentation while transcribing some field recordings I had for an ethnography I was working on. Grey had beat me to it and has a font you can download on his site. I've been using his system ever since. No, wouldn't be standard, but enough folks have his book(s) and it was handy to use it (free font).

I have since also released a free tin whistle tab font that can be downloaded here...

http://blaynechastain.com/blog/tin-whis ... ius-plugin

Here's an example of one of my scores using both my tab and Grey's ornamentation font

[megapop]

I think ornament notation is useless per se. The tilde as a roll indication is a common standard, but IMHO useless as well - I mean, when you see a quarter note or a dotted quarter or a couple of eighth, you know what to do. Of course, for the purpose of teaching ornamentation a notation makes perfect sense, but then there is no standard needed. Once you got it, you can confidently forget it again. In the end, it's all up to the player, not to the notation.

[benhall.1]

I think ornament notation is useless per se. The tilde as a roll indication is a common standard, but IMHO useless as well - I mean, when you see a quarter note or a dotted quarter or a couple of eighth, you know what to do. Of course, for the purpose of teaching ornamentation a notation makes perfect sense, but then there is no standard needed. Once you got it, you can confidently forget it again. In the end, it's all up to the player, not to the notation.

I probably more than half agree with that. However, I think there are a few tunes where, if you're going to notate them at all, it may be nice to know that longer notes may not, in the standard versions, be ornamented. Good Morning to my Nightcap springs to mind. Some versions of The Star of Munster as well, Christmas Eve and plenty more.

[an seanduine]

For certain I agree with you Ben. But I also like to utilize the 'inner-tubes' and exercise my 'good cloth ear' by listening to various examples. The notation becomes what it actually is, a chart, or a sort of Baedecker.

Bob

[Mr.Gumby]

I think ornament notation is useless per se

It depends on the purpose of the notation. For simple transmission of tunes it's not necessary. For a more detailed look at what a player is actually doing, it is important to have an in depth notation. GL's system of simplified indications for cuts (as I remember it) is not sufficient for that purpose.

[Gordon]

I think ornament notation is useless per se. The tilde as a roll indication is a common standard, but IMHO useless as well - I mean, when you see a quarter note or a dotted quarter or a couple of eighth, you know what to do. Of course, for the purpose of teaching ornamentation a notation makes perfect sense, but then there is no standard needed. Once you got it, you can confidently forget it again. In the end, it's all up to the player, not to the notation.

I probably more than half agree with that. However, I think there are a few tunes where, if you're going to notate them at all, it may be nice to know that longer notes may not, in the standard versions, be ornamented. Good Morning to my Nightcap springs to mind. Some versions of The Star of Munster as well, Christmas Eve and plenty more.

Ornamenting, or not ornamenting - never mind exactly what kind - is mostly the player's choice. Notation that says an ornament goes in a specific place is, in most cases, a suggestion, not necessarily followed each time through, or played at all. Books that show elaborate ornaments (rather than the inoffensive tilde) as an integral part of a tune often do the tune an injustice in that it suggests to the uninitiated, or the beginner, that the tune cannot be played without said ornament, which is rarely true. In books that discuss how to ornament, some explanation or notation is probably very useful, but much less so, I think, in the notation of specific tunes, except by way of example. Much better to have the bare bones tune, and know your choices, or style, going in.

[Steve Bliven]

Ornamenting, or not ornamenting - never mind exactly what kind - is mostly the player's choice. Notation that says an ornament goes in a specific place is, in most cases, a suggestion, not necessarily followed each time through, or played at all. Books that show elaborate ornaments (rather than the inoffensive tilde) as an integral part of a tune often do the tune an injustice in that it suggests to the uninitiated, or the beginner, that the tune cannot be played without said ornament, which is rarely true. In books that discuss how to ornament, some explanation or notation is probably very useful, but much less so, I think, in the notation of specific tunes, except by way of example. Much better to have the bare bones tune, and know your choices, or style, going in.

Where I find ornamenting a written tune (and by extension some sort of coherent notation) of most use is in studying and understanding individual players' styles. The "How does he/she play this tune?" process. For someone learning to play—and at the same time developing his/her own style—this information can be very helpful.

It would be of great help if the authors of tutors using their own brand of notation would put in a summary page that lists all of the ornament notations provided in the book. I get frustrated leafing back through a series of chapters to find where some particular squigle was introduced...

Best wishes.

Steve

[Gobae]

Ornamenting, or not ornamenting - never mind exactly what kind - is mostly the player's choice. Notation that says an ornament goes in a specific place is, in most cases, a suggestion, not necessarily followed each time through, or played at all.

The issue for me, as a self-taught beginner, is that I can't even begin to guess where to ornament much less with what type. Ornament notation would at least give me a starting point and after a while allow me to develop a feel for what is common.

But it looks like as an answer to my original question, if I do encounter ornament notation in ITM flute sheet music it's unlikely to be Grey's.

[crookedtune]

I find Grey's method to be OK, but I tend not to use his book. I'm spending LOTS of time with the books by June McCormack and Conal O'Grada. I find the notations they use to be very clear and well-placed. I also love their playing and the way they present the music. They've really helped me improve, and I highly recommend those books.

Outside of tutorials, I prefer transcriptions without ornamentation. Once you've absorbed the spirit of the music, you'll want to be making your own decisions about how to use it anyway. The notation is only a blueprint.