whistle with ocarina style fingering?

[dspmusik]

i love how easy it is to play chromatics on an ocarina (especially 12 hole). the down side is, you have a more limited range since you can't over blow the 2nd octave and the fingering isn't the same in the 2nd octave.
i've seen questions on making an overblown ocarina (and why it doesn't traditionally work), but has any one make a whistle with ocarina type fingering? 2 thumbholes, L4 hole and 2 holes for R1 and R2?
i am familiar with double and triple ocarinas for the additional octaves, but in this post, i am wondering about a whistle style instrument (with a fipple).
thoughts?

[Feadoggie]

Well the whistle and the ocarina are very different types of instruments. I'm not very good at explaining the details of the physics ... but ... basically, the ocarina is a resonating vessel. The note it sounds is related to the vessel volume. When you open one or more holes you effectively reduce the volume of the vessel. You are aware of the scale limitiation in such an arrangement. Overblowing is not an option - it does not change the vessel's resonating volume.

On the other hand, chromatic whistles are made, perhaps not in large numbers, but it has been done. I've made ten hole models myself using two thumb holes and two pinky holes. Thinking of the recent threads where people have discussions of where to place their pinky, this is a great solution. But many folks can't handle the extra holes - hole placement is tricky and calls for custom fittings. It works best, IME, on whistles in Bb and A. High D is too tight for my hands. The fingering is quite intuitive, IMO, but folks don't scream to have such an instrument. So it's more of a curiosity. Double holes (a la recorder and some ocarinas) will work on a whistle design but they usually leave the dynamic balance between notes wanting.

David O'Brien makes a piccolo bodied instrument with a whistle head.

And, oh yeah, there is this thing called a recorder where the one thumbhole acts as an octave vent.

Feadoggie

[Feadoggie]

i am wondering about a whistle style instrument (with a fipple). thoughts?

I guess after thinking about your question for a while I figured maybe I really do not understand what you are really looking for, especially the fipple bit. And I thought of a few of ocarinas I have seen fashioned in the same manner as a recorder or wooden whistle. They are out there.

[MTGuru]

DSP, check out the UNSW acoustics pages for a good (and not overly technical) explanation of why ocarinas and whistles are very different.

Two good pages to start:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/woodwind.html

[dspmusik]

thanks for the thoughts and resources guys. to clarify my thoughts:
-i play a little recorder, but don't like that the fingerings are different for different octaves
-like that whistle has easy octave transitions by simply overblowing
-like that ocarina has intuitive chromatics (what i call a 'flat finger', just add R3 to almost all notes to make the current note 1/2 step lower). i would imagine that would not work with a whistle.

for those with a Cnat thumbhole whistle (i haven't tried one yet), how does that thumbhole modify other notes? Fnat, Bb, etc.?

[MTGuru]

for those with a Cnat thumbhole whistle (i haven't tried one yet), how does that thumbhole modify other notes?

It doesn't.

[nlr]

i am wondering about a whistle style instrument (with a fipple). thoughts?

I guess after thinking about your question for a while I figured maybe I really do not understand what you are really looking for, especially the fipple bit. And I thought of a few of ocarinas I have seen fashioned in the same manner as a recorder or wooden whistle. They are out there.

Interesting! Where to get this sort of "recorder" ocarinas?

[Feadoggie]

Interesting! Where to get this sort of "recorder" ocarinas?

I'll tell you a secret about photos on the web (ok, it's hardly a secret). Images are many times linked from their original location, which in this case happens to be the website for the maker of those ocarinas. Right click on the image, open the image in a new tab. Look at the url and go to the website.

That is just one maker of that style wooden ocarina. There are others. Google Images can be your friend.

Feadoggie

[nlr]

Interesting! Where to get this sort of "recorder" ocarinas?

I'll tell you a secret about photos on the web (ok, it's hardly a secret). Images are many times linked from their original location, which in this case happens to be the website for the maker of those ocarinas. Right click on the image, open the image in a new tab. Look at the url and go to the website.

That is just one maker of that style wooden ocarina. There are others. Google Images can be your friend.

Feadoggie

Ok, thanks