How much off tune is in tune? ;)

[sverretheflute]

I'm not very good in hearing accurate if a scale is in tune within itself. But I also don't know what's the limit when you should hear it. Of course I don't want to play whistles that are too much off that limit.

I have a guitar tuner app that I use to test my whistles. See picture linked below. I bought a whistle that is of a quality used by folk musicians. It varies under 1% off the tune at the lowest tones, but then goes over 1,6% off tune at the higher tones.

Many of my other whistles, even my Generation C tin whistle, are between 1,5% and 2,5% off tune. And if they differ each way + and - from the tune, some steps can vary up to 4-6 %. Then I hear it, I think.

I know that guitar strings often are difficult to keep in tune at all, because the string itself will vary up and down as it gives sound. So maye a whistle also needs to vary...

So I wonder, could you folks give me some lessons about facts and tastes in this matter?

Thanks!

(Just got my serbian frula now, but I need some time to get used to it before I give a review.)

sverretheflute

the tuner: http://flic.kr/p/cqhqd9

[hans]

I've not come across a tuner displaying differences in percentages. Most digital tuners display in cents, with the octave being divided into 1200 cents (12 semi-tone steps of 100 cents each) rather than saying that you are 50% out when you are an octave up or down, as the figures from your image suggest.
[ Explanation: (864.6 Hz / 880 Hz) - 1 = -0.0175 or -1.75% ]
This would be in cents about -30 cents, which is rather flat.
2.5% would mean about 43 cents, way out of tune.
[ Explanation: add 1 to 2.5% = 1.025, which is the ratio between the frequencies, which is 42.7 cents.] Check with this calculator (Frequency ratio f2 / f1):
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-centsratio.htm

Maybe I misunderstand your tuner. In any case a digital tuner will show you deviations from equal tempered tuning, which may not be appropriate or helpful when you want sweet sounding intervals, which will be in some form of just intonation (whole number ratios for intervals, rather than a logarithmic division of the octave).

[retired]

Hans - for me this begs the question - how much cents off is acceptable, flat or sharp - I don't mean 'ideally or perfectly' but reasonably how close to 'in tune' should a decent whistle play ?

[kmarty]

Hi,
maybe I'm wrong (I'm sure wrong, because I'm a beginner) but I don't care it if I play alone. Sometimes, some tones sounds awkward*, so I little tune it just for me and my ears.
And if I play with someone (something respectively, because I didn't played with real players yet) I tune it to tones near to tones which is on the songs just so close that it is not unpleasant for me, regardless of how it is really tuned.


*) Flatten or sharpen. I don't mean poorly played tones now .

[sverretheflute]

Hans - for me this begs the question - how much cents off is acceptable, flat or sharp - I don't mean 'ideally or perfectly' but reasonably how close to 'in tune' should a decent whistle play ?

Yes, retired, that's my question. And how I understand Hans is that 30 cent is acceptable, but over 40 is far out. Right? Anyone agree, disagree, any more opinions?

In any case a digital tuner will show you deviations from equal tempered tuning, which may not be appropriate or helpful when you want sweet sounding intervals..

If I understand you right, Hans, yes the intervals within the scale is of course most important. But anyway, my whistles are at least close to the scale they are said to be in.

Thank you folks, I would love to hear more opinions and lessons about this.

sverretheflute

[mutepointe]

I love tuners. They make my life simpler because I don't have the ear other folks have either. I do like to caution people that if you're trying to blow the whistle to make the tuner show perfect pitch, you're thinking backwards. There is a lot of wiggle room playing a whistle and as you have probably noticed, you can make the needle fly all over the place. Then, you try to get the needle spot on. That's all backwards. You've got to tune a whistle under normal operating conditions.

I try tuning my whistles to a gentle low G (some people go with A) because that's the middle of most of my songs and I tend to play gently. That also leaves one hand free to adjust the whistle. I don't try for perfect. That's a lost cause and a futile search with so much wiggle room. Then it's up to my playing skills, especially if I'm playing with other people to blend in with them. If I'm flat or sharp too much, it'll be noticeable. Sharp is usually my first inclination, then I adjust. You got plenty of wiggle room, so whistles aren't an exact science.

I've not ever played with another wind instrument. I can imagine getting two wind instruments to be in sync is a bit of a challenge. My friends who were in band have stories.

[MTGuru]

for me this begs the question

Maybe that's because the question just begs to be begged.

And how I understand Hans is that 30 cent is acceptable

No, I don't think Hans meant that. -30 cents is quite flat.

The easy answer you're looking for is something like: +/- 5 cents in slow passages, and +/- 10 cents in fast passages. That will sound in tune to most people.

But that's not really the answer.

I'm not very good in hearing accurate if a scale is in tune within itself.

There's the crux of the matter, isn't it? An electronic tuner is not a substitute for ear training, and you can't substitute a bunch of numbers for musicianship. You need to both hear and understand intonation.

Assuming that your whistle is properly designed and not defective, it is capable of playing in tune. But the pitch that you play for any given note is a function of both the whistle and you, not just the whistle. It's your responsibility to blow each note into proper intonation. I'm sure I could play your whistle into your tuner thingy and produce different results. In that sense, the specific numbers are basically meaningless.

As Hans says, most tuners are designed for Equal Temperament (ET). If your whistle is also designed for ET, then you should be able to play it consistently within the above limits (5/10 cents) and see that on the tuner. If your whistle is made for a form of Just Intonation JI, then to check it you can look up or calculate your JI offsets and check those on the tuner. Or use a tuner (like the Shaku or Peterson tuner) that can handle JI.

But there's a big difference between checking individual notes and actually playing the instrument. In practice, you just need to play what sounds good.

[benhall.1]

I've been struggling ever since the OP was posted to put into words what MTGuru has just said there. Now all I have to say is ...

"What he said".

[hans]

And how I understand Hans is that 30 cent is acceptable, but over 40 is far out. Right? Anyone agree, disagree, any more opinions?

I did not say it is acceptable, I wrote "-30 cents is rather flat". I would find that unacceptable, because I would probably not be able to blow it into tune.

If I understand you right, Hans, yes the intervals within the scale is of course most important. But anyway, my whistles are at least close to the scale they are said to be in.

We hope so .

MTGuru made good points. But I imagine that most folk would not know what kind of tuning a whistle was built for. Not that it matters for a beginner who is still learning how to blow notes in tune, and who may often be way out because of lack of skill.

A whistle tuned traditionally, not modern ET, would have a F# which is flat to ET (-14 cents in Just Intonation to give a 5:4 ratio between third and first note of the scale). So that should be a good indicator, and also gives you a number for how much a sweet sounding interval can be off a equal tempered scale. The C# would also be flat compared to ET, perhaps even flatter than what a just intoned seventh would be, in order to achieve a good cross fingered C natural. But it should be easy to blow the C# into tune.

If you like playing slow airs and sweet intervals, and are able to hear these, you find that for airs in G major or A minor you want your B note flat to ET (-16 cents), because the B is the third note in the G scale. But for a tune in D major or E minor you want the B a little sharp to ET (+6 cents), to play it as a pure fifth over the second (E). So here we got a difference of 22 cents for two kinds of sweet B notes. Again a player would adjust by ear to produce the right note.

[brewerpaul]

I've been struggling ever since the OP was posted to put into words what MTGuru has just said there. Now all I have to say is ...

"What he said".

I agree, and I'd add that if it sounds OK, it IS OK for your own purposes. If you're playing with others, it has to sound good and in tune with them.

[sverretheflute]

Thank you all!

Your answers are quite advanced. Also because english is not my native language. I understand english well, but at this level I can miss some details. And at least I can get confused about some musical therms. For instance, "flat", I thought that meant quite straight on the tone. I understand now it's not…


Well, this is a summary of what I got out of what you are telling me:

To play a whistle in tune is much about how you play, your intonation. That's a matter of practice both in ears and technique.

But if a whistle is far enough off tune, you can't get it in tune just by playing it right.

A tuner is not just a tuner. There are different ways of measuring, and the wrong method can give false result, in a way I don't understand…

So, my measurements do not tell much, because there are too many other variables. But if my measurements are right, my whistle is quite far off being in tune.



This is the thing: I bought a cheap whistle in an souvenir shop in Albania. I soon fell in love with it. There is a closeness to the air, kind of. What happens between your mouth, your fingers and the air, is easy to understand and practice. And the whistle gives a nice expressive sound.

But because I have the impression that this cheap whistle is not clean, I started to search for a better model. With the help from this forum, I found out that my albanian whistle is a balkan frula made in serbia. I found a company making frulas for more professional musicians.

I received the better frula in the same key as the cheap one. The sound is cleaner, and better in tune, I think. But it's not the frula I fell in love with. The wood is stiffer, the sound is different, the feeling of closeness to the air and sound is not the same.



The matter about tuning was bigger and more complex than I thought. I think the best shortcut is to have you listening to my cheap frula. Please listen to this sample and give me some feedback on the tuning.

I have played for just one year without any other teaching than what I could find on the internet. This example is not about performance. Maybe I should buy some skype-lessons. (Any suggestions? ) My country does not have a whistle player in every second farm house.

http://soundcloud.com/sverremac/whistle-check (A photo is attached too, click the photo to see the whole frula.)

(Hans, I listened to your sound examples on your web site, the Bb first, and then more. I like your whistles. They have the lyric quality, that I often miss in metal whistles.)

[Tunborough]

The sound is cleaner, and better in tune, I think. But it's not the frula I fell in love with.

If you have the courage to tweak your cheap frula, all may not be lost. There are many things you cannot change, but you can make toneholes larger. If the notes are flat, this will make them sharper. You can also use putty to make the holes smaller, although this isn't as tidy. Might this help? If so, we can provide more guidance.

Also, for playing on your own, it doesn't matter so much whether your tuner says a given note is sharp or flat; what matters is whether it is sharp or flat relative to the other notes. For example, let's say the lowest note is a D, and the tuner tells you it is 600 Hz, or almost 40 cents sharp. (Ouch!) If all the other notes are 40 cents sharp, you can still play beautiful music by yourself. The G, for example, should be 4/3 times 600, or 800 Hz, instead of 783, and the A should be 900 instead of 880 Hz. If a listener complains, you tell them you're tuned to A450.

[sverretheflute]

The sound is cleaner, and better in tune, I think. But it's not the frula I fell in love with.

If you have the courage to tweak your cheap frula, all may not be lost. There are many things you cannot change, but you can make toneholes larger. If the notes are flat, this will make them sharper. You can also use putty to make the holes smaller, although this isn't as tidy. Might this help? If so, we can provide more guidance.

Thank you, Tundborough! I've already thought about that, but didn't know if it was possible. I would need a professional to do that, and he doesn't live around my corner. Where should I search for such a whistle doctor?

Also, for playing on your own, it doesn't matter so much whether your tuner says a given note is sharp or flat; what matters is whether it is sharp or flat relative to the other notes. For example, let's say the lowest note is a D, and the tuner tells you it is 600 Hz, or almost 40 cents sharp. (Ouch!) If all the other notes are 40 cents sharp, you can still play beautiful music by yourself. The G, for example, should be 4/3 times 600, or 800 Hz, instead of 783, and the A should be 900 instead of 880 Hz. If a listener complains, you tell them you're tuned to A450.

Sadly it's not that way, the whistle is off tune both ways.

[hans]

Judging from your sound sample track, I'd say the whistle is somewhat in tune when setting A=437 Hz, not 440. So all the notes are a bit flat compared to concert pitch (A=440Hz). But the third note is quite flat, more than a just intoned third should be. If you cannot blow the note sharper a bit, you could try and enlarge the hole a little, say 0.5mm. It is tricky to give correct advise on this, without handling and checking the tuning in detail. Also if you make the fifth hole a bit larger, it will also affect the notes higher up, not just the third note, but also the fourth may be a little bit sharper. So one needs to be careful with such tuning tweaks.

(I count the holes from the top, but the notes from the bottom )

[sverretheflute]

Judging from your sound sample track, I'd say the whistle is somewhat in tune when setting A=437 Hz, not 440. So all the notes are a bit flat compared to concert pitch (A=440Hz). But the third note is quite flat, more than a just intoned third should be. If you cannot blow the note sharper a bit, you could try and enlarge the hole a little, say 0.5mm. It is tricky to give correct advise on this, without handling and checking the tuning in detail. Also if you make the fifth hole a bit larger, it will also affect the notes higher up, not just the third note, but also the fourth may be a little bit sharper. So one needs to be careful with such tuning tweaks.

(I count the holes from the top, but the notes from the bottom )

Thank you, Hans! What I hear, is that there is hope for mye favorite whistle.

Yes it's the third note that is the main problem. But I don't think I would do that myself. Where could I send the whistle to get it done? I hardly think there is anyone in Norway, but I will try to search around.

(this forum is useful!)
sverretheflute