A few more questions from the new guy.

Silas · Post by **Silas** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:34 pm

I have a few questions I'm hoping to have answered about Irish whistle playing, learning etc...

Question1: Is there such a thing as too little tonguing? On the first couple tunes I learned, I learned to tongue certain notes(whatever notes were tongued by the player on the demonstration cd that went along with my beginner book. Then I tried these tunes without tonguing, stressing the notes in other ways, like stopping blowing for just a fraction of a second, or blowing a little harder, not enough to go into the second octave or to squeech, but just enough to accentuate the note. (I dont have troubles doing double grace notes or triplets this way.) Now Ive learned more tunes this way, and while I dont notice an audible difference other than some times that little nock sound when someone tongues too hard/fast and their tongue hits the bottom of their mouth, there may indeed be stylistic differences which I am not aware of. So if anyone has a good understanding of Irish traditional music could help me understand this situation better, I'd appreciate the help.

Question2: I read on this message board and other websites that in Irish music its very important to be able to learn to play by ear and that the earlier this is learned the better. My question is basically how do I do this? Everything seems too fast, so I think I might try some really slow, slow airs and try to work up by speed. If there is a better way to learn to play the whistle by ear, I'd appreciate any help in this area also.

Question3: I also have read many times that its important to listen to authentic Irish traditional sessions and to join them as soon as possible. Well I went to one here in Seattle, just to listen, and it was way above my level of play. So as a newish player (2 1/2 months) how do I approach this condundrum. I want to learn to play Traditional Irish music with others, yet it seems so difficult. At what point do I play in sessions? I dont want to learn too many tunes just by myself, then I will find it too difficult to adapt my playing style to those at the session. I also dont want to go too early, even in my one session listening, I've seen what one joker can do to muck up the music. (I dont want to be that joker.)

Question4: Do I need an instructor? Are there Instructors in the Seattle Area that are well versed in the Irish traditional music? - I know there are players, but instructors? If so, how might I get intouch with them, if I do need to visit one?

Question5: Are there any players from the Seattle area that post on this board?

Again thanks to everyone for their time.

Silas

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:50 pm

Hi Silas,

Re tonguing, well...that is the debate, isn't it?

While generally you tongue a whistle less than you would tongue a recorder, there really isn't any kind of hard and fast rule. Some Irish musicians barely tongue at all, some tongue quite a bit. The two places I think one should always tongue is at the beginning of a piece and after a rest...after that it's more a matter of personal style than anything else.

As far as learning faster tunes by ear goes, listening until you can hum or lilt a tune generally helps...then you can slow it down enough in your mind to learn it. Instructional CDs that play the tune once through slowly and then at speed can also help...I think some of the tutors come with those.

Some people never play in a session and never care to...if you're not interested in doing so, or if you're not ready, there's certainly no rush. If you want to get involved, perhaps asking the musicians at a local session if there are any beginners/intermediates sessions around would be a help.

Is a teacher necessary? Not necessarily.

A lot of whistlers are self-taught, and one of the advantages of this instrument is it's a relatively easy one to self-teach. That said, sometimes having a teacher can help you improve faster, or keep you from developing bad habits, and some people just plain prefer the face-to-face approach to learning. I don't know about teachers in Seattle, but I think some folks here are from around there, and they might have ideas for you.

I'm sure others will weigh in on this too.

Happy Whistling!

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-01-10 20:02 ]

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:04 pm

Yes, there are instructors--probably
you can find one through Dusty Strings,
in Fremont. If there are festivals
there are workshops, too. Instructors
aren't essential, but they can be
very helpful. For me I found very
occasional instruction was useful--
mostly about technique, ornamentation,
etc. Then I go off for a few months
or longer and learn tunes.

No, there is not too little tonguing.
Tonguing can be useful, of course.
But one can punctuate a note with
ornamentation or not at all.

Learning from CDs, well, unless
you get software that slows things
down, which i've never had,
I listen to a line repeatedly
and play it until I can. Then
I do it with another line.
Labor intensive, yes, but
when you're a fanatic,
that's no problem.

As to sessions, you're lucky
to have them. Go listen.
Meanwhile learn to play.
At some point you'll be
good enough to join in.
Patience. Best of luck, Jim

Silas · Post by **Silas** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:01 pm

Thanks guys for the help:)

avanutria · Post by **avanutria** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:08 pm

Silas I'm moving to Seattle next fall, I'll be sure to post asking for locals at that time. Let's get together and teach each other some tunes

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:30 pm

Hi Silas,
Only someone with "the gift" could play in a session after 2 1/2 months of learning. You'll be doing well if you can sit in on some tunes at a not-so-professional session after 12 months of work. It's like finding a wife. Sometimes you just need to enjoy yourself, then suddenly one day...it happens.

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:33 pm

Not the most experienced whistler by any stretch, but I would think that sessions would be one of the fastest ways of improving your playing.

I've never been to a session but I played saxophone in high school and college, and I didn't realize until I was in the college jazz band how much you improve when you are stretched to the edge of your abilities. When we sightread John Coltrane solos at speed on the first pass, I realized how much more one is capable of doing when they *have* to. Talk to the sessioneers and see if there are any slow sessions in your area, and stretch yourself. You might be pleasantly surprised, or at least you will know what you have to work on.

Robin

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:40 pm

Silas

Check you private mesgs.

Teri

elliott · Post by **elliott** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:03 pm

Hoo boy! You've asked all the big ones at once!

Here's my 2 cents worth:

1) Playing Irish music isn't about one technique or another. It's about HEART. If you love the music, you want to express it. If a tune moves you, and you want to move yourself or others because of it, YOU WILL FIND A WAY. All the rest is commentary, as Rabbi Akiva said.

2) Now, it happens that if you use the traditional ornaments instead of tongueing, your traditional Irish tunes will sound more Irish and more traditional. Presumably this is what attracted you in the first place.

3) And that is why it's a good idea to listen to the great players, live and on record.

4) It wouldn't hurt to get a portable recorder and microphone, either. You go up to someone at the too-fast session during a break, and say, "I'm new at this, but I LOVED the way you played So-and-So Reel! Would you please play it for me at a tempo slow enough so I can learn it and then once at the speed everyone plays it?"
No one will ever refuse you (unless they are chasing after some guy or girl!).

5) And that is how you learn to play by ear! You learn to play by ear by playing by ear. You either get a decent recorder and mic or a very patient friend. Play Jingle Bells. The Star Spangled Banner. The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Happy Birthday. Anything and everything till you stop thinking and start playing the whistle as second nature.

6) Stop believing that you "have to do this" and "shouldn't do that". It's not a bunch of rules, it's music. Relax and enjoy.

7) There are three kinds of Irish music - the music you play for and by yourself, the music you play for and with a session, and the music you perform for others (which may include music you play at certain sessions). You might end up with one version of a tune that works at the super-speed session and a different way of playing it at home. So what?

Because you are a decent person, you have discovered the essence of "session etiquette" - DON'T MUCK UP THE MUSIC! Play when you know the tune, sit and smile when you don't. If you don't like the session or the people, start another one.

9) An instructor is a paid "patient friend". They can be very valuable - they keep you from developing bad habits and show you things you would never have thought of. Most of my students quit after a few months, and assimilate the lessons for years.

10) What we can write about "stylistic differences you are not aware of" will not help you one whit. Listen to great players and try to play like one of them. In a year or two try to play like someone else. Eventually you will play like yourself. And THAT will keep Irish music alive - not whether you've got Mary Bergen's style down pat.

By the way. What intructional CD has a guy tonguing on a whistle?

edited to get a smiley face off of my post. Yuck-o.
______________
--^======== (((

In-SAN-i-ty (noun) 1. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

[ This Message was edited by: ELLIOTT on 2003-01-11 00:07 ]

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:47 am

The tonguing question is, I think, addressed quite nicely on <A HREF="http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/">Br. Steve's site</A>

Redwolf

Switchfoot · Post by **Switchfoot** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:30 am

Cant believe no one mentioned "The Amazing Slow Downer"

there isnt much more to it then what the name says. Always a good resource... Im not sure where you can find it but search the message board and you'll find the link

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:37 am

This thread is a reminder to me that you guys are, as a rule, very kind & receptive to newbies. Thank you!

Dale

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:51 am

Yes, Dale, we ARE nice aren't we. Not like those snobby air compressors over on the uilleann pipe forum, eh?

Further comment to new guy: I don't "get" this aversion to tongueing that some seem to hold to. IMHO Irish music (except laments etc.) should be played in a "snappy" manner...staccatto (spelling?). And tongueing helps create that snap. It can be overdone of course, but I'm a believer in giving it as much as you can reasonably pack in there.

[ This Message was edited by: E = Fb on 2003-01-11 10:57 ]

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:17 am

On 2003-01-11 10:51, E = Fb wrote:
Yes, Dale, we ARE nice aren't we. Not like those snobby air compressors over on the uilleann pipe forum, eh?

Further comment to new guy: I don't "get" this aversion to tongueing that some seem to hold to. IMHO Irish music (except laments etc.) should be played in a "snappy" manner...staccatto (spelling?). And tongueing helps create that snap. It can be overdone of course, but I'm a believer in giving it as much as you can reasonably pack in there.

[ This Message was edited by: E = Fb on 2003-01-11 10:57 ]

Same here. Tonguing is a tool, like any other...an ornament, if you will. I have recordings of trad musicians where they tongue quite a bit and some where they use different forms of articulation...it seems to vary as much with the interpretation as with the player. Agreed that it can be overdone (as can trills, rolls and taps!), but to say "thou shalt not tongue" is to remove a useful and legitimate tool from the players bag of tricks.

Redwolf

JMcCYoung · Post by **JMcCYoung** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:45 am

On 2003-01-11 10:30, Switchfoot wrote:
Cant believe no one mentioned "The Amazing Slow Downer" there isnt much more to it then what the name says. Always a good resource... Im not sure where you can find it but search the message board and you'll find the link

http://www.ronimusic.com/slowdown.htm

For Mac users, there's also the freeware sonicWORX Basic:

http://www.prosoniq.net/html/freebies.html

I get the impression it's not as obvious and intuitive as ASD, but the price is right and you can do things like alter pitch too.

John