How popular were flutes in 19th century USA?

[jim stone]

I have read that wooden flutes were very popular in 19th century England,
and it's obvious that the many flutemakers we read about had
a market. I wonder how things were here in the USA? I know there were
some American flutemakers and I also know that at least some flutes were
imported from England (I have one of them made about 1840). But were
wooden conical flutes pretty widely played? I mean not just for classical music but as
a popular instrument.

[jim stone]

OK I could really use some help here. I know that Thoreau played flute.
Is there any reason to think flutes were a LOT less popular in the USA than in
England? Does anyone have any info or thoughts at all?

I'm interested because I'm wondering if flutes were played in what is now called 'Old Time' music.
People seem to have picked up the instruments they had about, and if flutes were about
I suppose they were occasionally part of such ensembles.

[s1m0n]

People played what they had, but they seem to have had concert flutes less than many other instruments, at least as far as early recordings show. Wind instruments were more likely to have been either a marching-band fife or - in the Georgia and Carolina gulf islands - 'the quills', a reed flute made of cane or bamboo, essentially iirc a pan flute.

So go ahead and play OT flute. There's not a ton of precedent, afaik, but its totally in line with the ethic.

[Feadoggie]

I'm interested because I'm wondering if flutes were played in what is now called 'Old Time' music.
People seem to have picked up the instruments they had about, and if flutes were about
I suppose they were occasionally part of such ensembles.

I don't think so. I expect they were used for band music mostly. Yes, people played what they had and some did have flutes. I was an instrument "picker" in the sixties and seventies. I bought, refurbished and re-sold old instruments to supplement my income as a player. There were quite a few flutes and piccolos from late 19th Century. Most were department store or Sears Catalog quality - lots of German imports. Music was a live performance commodity before Edison changed the natural order of things. Every home seemed to have some type of instrument. I talked to a lot of old timers (wish I had a video recorder back then). Every instrument had a story. They described house concerts, parlor music, barn dances, community bands and orchestras. The music they played was the pop music of the day. The region I live in still has a brass band tradition (settled by German speakers). Flutes were no more common than other band instruments. Banjos and Fiddles seemed most prevalent from that era, followed by guitars and some mandolins. Early 20th Century was a little different - fewer and different banjos, more guitars and mandolins. Still a lot of fiddles. Every town or village had a band shell or pavilion in their park. Remember there was no American Idol back in the day. To the extent that pop music of that era was what we now call Olde Tyme music, like the music of the first superstar Stephan Foster, they played it. But it propably wasn't played as you might play it today in an Olde Tyme session.

Just my thoughts.

Feadoggie

[jim stone]

Thanks. I did find this in the wiki Old Time music entry:

New England

The New England states, being among the first to be settled by Europeans, have one of the oldest traditions of old-time music. Although the Puritans (the first Europeans to settle in the region), frowned upon instrumental music, dance music flourished in both urban and rural areas beginning in the 17th century. Primary instruments include the fiddle, piano, and guitar, with the wooden flute sometimes also used. As with Appalachian folk, a number of classical composers have turned to New England folk music for melodic and harmonic ideas, most famously Charles Ives, as well as Aaron Copland, William Schuman, and John Cage, among others. Rhythmically, this style is more diverse than most southern old time, featuring schottisches, hornpipes, and waltzes in addition to reels.

So flutes were used traditionally in 'old time music' in one of the oldest traditions.

I think Irish flute works very well in Old Time music, and I sometimes run into static from people who think
only stringed instruments belong. Bit of a surprise. Would expect it more in bluegrass.

Nice to have some claim to historical authenticity.

[dunnp]

It would be nice to find that link but it's not really glaringly there.

In other words no matter how hard I looked I never found an Appalachian string band with a flute or fife. I ve heard recordings with quills though.

though that doesnt mean it never happened ever.

Youd be better off looking for connections to the fife I think,
like Quince Dillons High D which reportedly came from a fifer.
To me many old time tunes sound similar to many fife tunes.

Something like the Wild Goose chase which I found in an online fife collection would sound right at home in an Old Time music session ( perhaps it is played?)

Is New England contradance the same thing as Old Time music? do we justify it based on Wikipedia?
when did the music I think of as Old Time music develop it's unique sound and repetoire?
was it after the widespread use of flute in dance music developed in Ireland and after the fiddle completey usurped the flute in Scottish music?

I wonder what older Breton musicians first thought of Jean Michel?
our time may come yet Jim.

not making arguments just asking the questions I think need to be asked?

William Sydney Mount played things like the Braes of Tullymett to Old Susanah and reportedly played the flute as well as fiddle.

someone else mentioned Stephen Foster.

another place to look might be runaway slave ads,
I cant remember where but I am sure I found one or two reporting flute as well as fiddle
so what would a Southern African American flute player have played?

wouldnt it be a dream come true to find an Otha Turner type fellow playing Miss Mcleods?

[MTGuru]

viewtopic.php?p=789929#p789929

[dunnp]

Nicely summed up!

because I play Irish music and not Old Time music I play Old Time tunes like they are Irish tunes

same as here:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x8K22Z5NL40

when Desi picks up the whistle you hear him rolling and such.

he recorded Kitchen Girl years ago on the Three Piece Flute album.



I play with a Scruggs style banjo player and he hates it when I play flute on Bluegrass instrumentals but cant understand that I feel the same when he inflicts five string banjo on my jigs and reels.

[dunnp]

Does anyone have a copy of Rileys Flute Melodies?

That would be nice to look through, someone with a scanned copy?

[MikeS]

Once before a performance Wendell Dobbs referred to his 1840's Firth, Hall and Pond flute as a "picnic flute." When talking about it he described it as a not terribly expensive instrument in its day that someone might take on a picnic for entertainment. The birch trees in this painting suggest New England rather than Carolina or Appalachia. Nowadays the park police would likely inform you that the playing of musical instruments is not allowed in the park.

[Denny]

the wiki Old Time music entry

It would be nice to find that link but it's not really glaringly there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-time_music

[dunnp]

humor Denny?

despite wikipedia the term Old Time to me conjures Southern tunes in a different style than New England Contradance jigs and reels and Canadian tunes

[Denny]

*sigh* doesn't take as much to be "old" over here ya know


I gave up on Jim learning how do create a link years back

[jim stone]

I thought 'link' was being used in a different sense.
I can copy a link to wikipedia, I swear!

Note that pianos were also used in the New England Old Time tradition,
according to wiki.

We're playing a great hodge-podge of old tunes, lots of tunes circa the Civil War (e.g. Liberty)
lots of fiddle tunes. I don't think anything old, popular, American and non-classical
is excluded at our session. And flutes were playing some of
the tunes we play, at least occasionally. So there!

Twasn't like the bassoon....

[dunnp]

I have a great interest in this topic as well Jim. I love playing Old Time tunes as well. I do so because they re great tunes not because of some imagined link to the past though and I wouldn't expect to be automatically accepted at an Old Time session.

I think the analogy to five string banjoists playing Irish music is the same. A five stringer would have to truly pay his dues in Irish music to not elicit a sigh from most serious Irish musicians I know. Ive even heard Bela Fleck play some Irish tunes and thought they sounded just not quite right ( the the contradiction on Solas' album is an exception). I would expect serious Old Time musicians to think the same of hearing my flute playing.

I remember a similar story Adrian Greenbaum might have shared on here. She showed some Klezmer old timers some photos with flute players. They said perhaps they just showed up for the pictures or make up the numbers. (something along those lines)

anyway here are a couple of tunes I learned from an Old Time players

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=xxRlScuplfc

any clips Jim?

take care, Patrick