flutemaking: best finishes?

[mke_mick]

Hi, all:

Just for fun I've been turning a batch of simple Bb fifes out of maple. They're rough-turned, seasoned, bored through, and ready for finish-turning, tone/embouchure hole-drilling, and sanding. So after that, what are my best options for oiling/finishing them?

I've read (Sweetheart Flutes website?) that soaking the fifes overnight in pure tung oil is one approach. Is that reasonably safe too with respect to player's-lip contact? (Can't be worse for you than bore oil, right?)

According to Casey B. almond oil will turn rancid even with Vitamin E added, so I've ruled that out. Walnut oil is often used for salad-bowls, but I'm allergic to walnuts. (Is that used by instrument-makers otherwise?)

I'm leaning towards tung oil.

TIA,
Mick

[jim stone]

I can speak only for myself: I've never had any reaction to tung oil.
And it does seem to make flutes highly resistant to moisture.

[Dominic Allan]

With woods like maple I prefer to soak it for a few days in boiled linseed oil then given a month to dry. Once it's dry you can give it a buff up on a polishing mop with a bit of bees wax.
I have used danish oil to speed things up in an emergency, whatever you use it should be an oil that dries.

[highwood]

whatever you use it should be an oil that dries.

tung oil also dries - in fact they (tung oil and boiled linseed oil) don't dry they polymerize

Note that at least here in the US boiled Linseed oil is often not - it is linseed oil with stuff added that speeds up the 'drying process' without having to boil the linseed oil, the stuff is not stuff that I would want on a piece of wood next to my mouth (there is some discussion about whether newer chemical driers are safe(r) - personally I would rather just avoid such things). I did recently see pure linseed oil at my local hardware store, I've never used pure linseed oil - it needs to boiled before it is used (other wise the polymerization either never happens or takes forever).
I do use pure tung oil which is suitable for food contact and like it as a wood finish - bit pricey though. Tung oil should not be left standing open for long periods so if you are going to soak something overnight it should be a sealed container. Remove any and all excess oil after applying (let it soak in for a while first) or you will end with a gooey mess, several coats work best. I have finished wood countertops, wood whistles and various other wooden items with tung oil with excellent results.

wikipedia has information on both oils

[Jon C.]

Tong oil is a good drying oil and is food grade, if thinned with orange solvent. you can get the pure stuff at http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html
I am allergic to linseed oil, so I avoid it.

[LorenzoFlute]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00060.asp

[mke_mick]

Very helpful replies, guys, thanks!

--Mick

[Calum Stewart]

GREAT topic...

I'm always really confused about the almond-oil-going-rancid fear.
I always use almond oil, I always have done, and all the flute makers I've met do the same and recommend it (with the exception of Robert Bigio who prefers Tung oil - which has a different effect than almond oil as it happens)!

Tung oil for me does a different thing to almond oil: it creates a harder polymerised layer if left for a few hours or more. In my experience ( a little limited with Tung oil, as I prefer Almond) it leaves, for a little time, a hardish residue like layer.

For me, Almond oil isn't about leaving a hard layer, it's simply about feeding the wood, and helping it settle from it's previous form (tree) to it's new from (flute), and being as best prepared for temperature / humidity changes. Some flutes I've had have been really thirsty, and soak up a lot of the stuff, others not so.

BUT.. with both cases, I apply generously (a little less so with Tung oil) and I always wipe away excess oil. Of course, after a clean-off, at first there is always a sheen (with Tung oil more so), but there is never any considerable residue left over. So I don't understand how flutes can go rancid with Almond oil, unless the owner soaks the flute in the stuff, then leaves if for a long time without completely cleaning it out.

I'm curious...
Calum

[woodfluter]

Good to see others' experiences.

FWIW, I've never had a problem with almond oil going rancid. I have usually added the contents of 3 or 4 vitamin E capsules as recommended and shaken, and kept it stored at room temperature year round. For clarification, however, I do believe the comment referred to storing the oil in a container, not to rancidity within the wood!

Raw (un-boiled) linseed oil is indeed useful and doesn't take forever to dry...but then, I'm a geologist and my idea of "forever" might be different from some others. It's not a pure oil per my understanding, and contains both drying and polymerizing elements. The slower rate of drying/polymerization allows it to penetrate deeper into the wood - good where there's an issue of wear, not so important where the wood is already oily or has little pore space, and hence won't take up a lot of oil in any case.

My usual practice for woods (I've been using this for nearly 50 years - egad!) is to keep adding raw linseed on the first day until no more is absorbed, and then wipe off any residue. Then oil once or twice the next couple of days, once a day for about a week, then once a week for a few weeks. If that seems like excessive work, go for the (true) boiled version.

As for my flutes, I have used raw linseed when new, then usually transition to almond oil for routine periodic treatment with occasional reversion to linseed, maybe once or twice a year. YMMV and probably WV.

Cheers,
- Bill

[highwood]

Raw (un-boiled) linseed oil is indeed useful and doesn't take forever to dry...but then, I'm a geologist and my idea of "forever" might be different from some others. It's not a pure oil per my understanding, and contains both drying and polymerizing elements.

It is the "drying and polymerizing elements" that I prefer not to have on something that I prepare food on (cutting board/counter tops), stick in my mouth (wooden spoons etc.) or next to/in my mouth (wooden whistles or flutes). The 'not pure oil' does dry because of the "drying and polymerizing elements" added. Boiled linseed oil also dries/polymerizes and if you look hard or are lucky it is possible to obtain pure linseed oil which one then has to boil before applying if you want it to polymerize. The additive route is to simplify things for those scared of getting burnt, or in a rush but don't mind a few extra chemicals in their lives.

I use tung oil partly because it is more water proof finish than linseed oil.

[woodfluter]

It is the "drying and polymerizing elements" that I prefer not to have on something that I prepare food on (cutting board/counter tops), stick in my mouth (wooden spoons etc.) or next to/in my mouth (wooden whistles or flutes). The 'not pure oil' does dry because of the "drying and polymerizing elements" added.

Yep, I understand.
But by "drying and polymerizing elements", I was not referring to additives.

Raw linseed oil is flax seed oil. If you don't want to use raw linseed, you can go to a health food store and obtain food-grade flax seed oil at greater cost, which is AFAIK pretty much the same.

I may have mislead you by my choice of terms - sorry. By "not a pure oil", I meant that (like any natural oil) it isn't one kind of oil, chemically speaking, but rather a natural mixture. By elements, I meant those different oils plus other chemicals from the flax seeds that are carried along during processing. Although generally classified as a drying oil, it actually contains oils that are drying (polymerizing in reaction with oxygen) and those that aren't.

Not to get over-technical, but the principal fatty acid elements in linseed oil are:
- Triply unsaturated α-linolenic acid (51.9-55.2%),
- Saturated acids: palmitic (about 7%) & stearic (3.4-4.6%),
- Monounsaturated oleic acid (18.5-22.6%),
- Doubly unsaturated linoleic acid (14.2-17%).

None of these are additives. Those doubly and triply unsaturated components are the ones that get polymerized more readily.

I do agree that much *boiled* linseed is another story, with (if memory serves) even arsenical compounds added, but true boiled stuff is still available. Tung oil is something I haven't used but sounds very effective, especially if it is more hydrophobic. From what I've read, the tung oil dries more rapidly and hence cannot penetrate as deeply, but for flutes, this may not be significant...or it may...I just don't know.

- Bill

[highwood]

tung oil dries more rapidly and hence cannot penetrate as deeply

I think this is why some people soak the wood in a oil bath - as long as the container is closed the oil does not polymerize without oxygen. The other trick is to thin the oil with some solvent that will evaporate.

Then one might wonder wether one wants/needs the oil to penetrate too much, and I know that with some of the dense woods used for musical instruments that even soaking the wood for a long time does not result in the oil penetrating very far.

[woodfluter]

tung oil dries more rapidly and hence cannot penetrate as deeply

I think this is why some people soak the wood in a oil bath - as long as the container is closed the oil does not polymerize without oxygen. The other trick is to thin the oil with some solvent that will evaporate.

Then one might wonder wether one wants/needs the oil to penetrate too much, and I know that with some of the dense woods used for musical instruments that even soaking the wood for a long time does not result in the oil penetrating very far.

Right you are!
Oil bath in sealed container would work.

Also, as I noted, with very dense or oily woods, may not be a point in trying for a lot of penetration. I may have been digressing from the flutey topic! For less dense, more open grained woods, and those subject to more wear, getting deeper penetration can be good as opposed to something on the surface that can abrade or chip away. But with something like grenadilla, tung might be as good as you can do.

[raysa]

I've used peanut oil and almond oil (they seem very similar) on flutes over the years, and never had any trouble.
But I'm surprised to read the views about 'generous' application and even soaking. I was always told to apply oil very sparingly - just an occasional smearing.

[LorenzoFlute]

raysa, oiling a flute is not like giving it a finish...