multi-instrumentalist brain confusion

[Jose' Scotte' Este']

Hey all,

I don't know if this topic has been discussed before, so if it has, my apologies (and a link would be appreciated).

I have been trying to play several instruments for the past 12 years or so, and have felt like certain instruments are counter-productive to each other: stringed instruments vs. pipes/whistle/flute. I feel like when I make progress on one type of instrument, my playing on the other instrument suffers. At first I thought it might have to do with the finger technique, in that the stringed instruments require some finger pressure to hold down the strings, and the blown instruments require a soft touch with sensitivity to cover the holes. I thought maybe the two techniques were counter to each other. I am also not aware of many good players who play both types of instruments, (although a few come to mind: Seamus Egan, for example).

I bought a bouzouki this morning and started playing again (I haven't played zouk in about 1 1/2 years). I am a bit rusty and started to get back some of the tunes that I had learned, when I noticed that my left hand (I am right handed) fingers went in the wrong sequence for a little run in a tune I was relearning. I occurred to me that maybe I am confusing myself playing both types of instruments, because on the stringed instruments, a descending scale requires movements with the left hand fingers that are the opposite of the left hand finger movements of a descending scale for the flute/pipes/whistles.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Is there hope for me to learn both kinds of instruments well, (is it just a matter of practing more)? Thanks.

[Feadoggie]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Yes, I don't think about it. That's counter-productive.

Is there hope for me to learn both kinds of instruments well, (is it just a matter of practing more)?

Yes, time in the saddle is important with each instrument. I play the usual variety of stringed instruments and I play flute, fife and whistle. There are clarinets, saxes, recorders, button boxes, piano boxes, keyboards and quite a few more instruments in the studio arsenal. Music is music. Playing is just that - playing!

I do think that it is a good idea that when you take up a new instrument you concentrate on that instrument for some time to become very comfortable with it before moving along to another new instrument. It can take time. We're all different in how quickly we can become acclimated to a new tool. Take the long view of things. You'll get there. Life is long. Then when you learn a tune on one instrument you can just turn and play it on the others.

And I don't think Seamus Egan is at all unusual in the number of instruments he plays. The level at which he plays them is unusual but he is an unusually gifted guy. And he spent an awful lot of time in the woodshed as a young man. Some of us have to learn and do more than just play music to get through life. Still, almost everyone I play with is a multi-instrumentalist. It's a natural path for most musicians, pro or not.

Feadoggie

[Casey Burns]

I tried clarinets and soprano saxes this last year and found that the embouchures required affected my flute embouchure somewhat. More worrying was the tendonitis from playing something with a modern key system again! So I have stayed away from those instruments unfortunately. I play Spanish and occasionally French bagpipes, and I have no trouble with the fingers or fingering. Finally Gypsy Jazz Guitar. I don't need an embouchure with this. However, I have had to adjust my flute playing to piping style on the left hand, as the calluses then make it hard for my fingers to seal the holes correctly, without having to press the tightly or even taping them shut (the only flute playing I do these days usually is while tuning and voicing the instruments!).

With any of these instruments the learning curve is time dependent. The more time you spend the better you get at it gradually, and if you are older it simply takes longer as its harder to build new synaptic connections and you also have the ravages of wear and tear. You are training muscles to work a certain way that doesn't come automatically. I took up the Guitar again after a 30 year hiatus and fortunately had unlearned all the "cowboy chord" based fingerings and am still learning how to do the Gypsy chord voicings, not to mention solo runs. Its a good thing to be learning a new instrument in my mid 50s - this is supposed to be real good for one's brain's longevity.

Casey

[Akiba]

Opportunity cost--more time spent on one means less time spent on another. I think one can only be excellent on one instrument, perhaps a number of closely related instruments, e.g. flute and whistle. Even Seamus Egan doesn't sound nearly as good on flute as he used to now that I hear he has tendonitis and plays mostly plectrum instruments. Brian Finnegan admitted to me that his flute playing suffers because he spends so much time on whistles. There are some folks around here, two professional ITM players come to mind, who play both flute and concertina. But I think if they are recording on flute, they have to spend a lot of concentrated time on the instrument to sound in top form.

The greatest players concentrate on one instrument for a reason: it's the only way to be great.

[Hup]

Time is the big killer - you need to put in enough time
on each instrument. Flute (clarinet, sax, trumpet, etc)
requires training like an athlete just to keep your embouchure
muscles going so I think the winds are little different.

With the other ones, you're just keeping the notes 'under
your fingers' so if you're already good and you play out
regularly in sessions and concerts, you wouldn't need much practice.

[jim stone]

Maybe this advice is chiefly for oldies, and if you're a multiinstrumentalist, watch out for tendinitis.
Only so much the bod can take before inflammation starts.

[drewr]

I'd been playing guitar for many years by the time I took up the flute. One of the first things that caused me problems was the fact that as you moved fingerings from index finger to pinky on the fretboard of a guitar, you are increasing in pitch. With the flute (from index to ring finger) the pitch decreases down the length of the flute. Totally opposite.

[apossibleworld]

This is the opposite of every comment so far, but I find that playing different instruments makes me better at the other ones, when I go back to them. Of course it takes a little time to re-acclimate to some of the technical aspects. But playing instruments of very different kinds gives you a bigger picture on music in general, on what it's all about, how sounds work. That kind of stuff can have very real consequences when getting down to the small details of playing music... better sense of intonation, rhythm, etc.

Now of course you need to put in enough time to really get good at what you're doing. Also you can't force it. It's not always time to go back to something you used to do. You have to follow the muse and do what is right for you at the right time.

Sometimes I'm completely shocked at the transformation -- like, why should I be able to play this thing so easily, when all I've been doing is this other thing? I spent a lot of time last summer playing the banjo -- 19th century gut strung. I noticed afterward that on guitar, flute, and saxophone, my timing was radically better, much more "in the pocket". I have no doubt that it was in large part because of the steady pulsing rhythm of the banjo playing.

People can get so focused on the one thing they're doing that they forget that music is much bigger than the tiny lens of the instrument you're playing.

[iwilson]

I think from the brains' point-of-view it will help. However for the flute embouchure I've found multi-instruments
to be both a help and a hindrance ...

I've been playing the wooden flute since apr 09, and making slow but steady progress with it. A few months
ago I picked-up a second hand silver flute. The boehm flute teacher went to quickly pointed out that my
embouchure was far too "smiley", and that I needed to relax it more. Once I'd achieved this I found that it
*really* helped me with the wooden flute. I could get a better sound, and play for longer.

However I now find that the embouchure's required for the wooden vs silver flutes are subtly different such that I
cannot go straight from playing one to the other. I've now decided to stop playing the silver flute and
concentrate on getting a better tone on the wooden flute.

Ian

[benhall.1]

I agree with apossibleworld above, in that my fiddle playing is decidely better since I took up the flute 3 years ago. I do think you have to make sure that you keep on top of the old instrument as well as the new one, but, given the commitment and effort, I see no reason why you shouldn't be excellent on instruments from different families.

As always, this is a very old argument, too. Quantz, in the 18c, started off on violin, and apparently had to battle for a time to be accepted as a flautist. In time, he had no trouble being accepted as a master on both (and several other instruments).

Anyone think that Paul O'Shaughnessy sacrifices anything in his fiddle playing because he plays so much flute? (To be clear, I very much DON'T.)

Jimmy - if you're reading this, please bear in mind that he is my 'new best friend'.

[Gabriel]

My 'main instrument' is the flute, I tried playing the saxophone but the embouchure required for that had an influence on my flute playing (and my teacher was an idiot...), so I stopped that again. The only other mouth blown instrument I play is the whistle and that doesn't influence my flute playing too much, however after teaching a whistle workshop I need some time to get into fluting again. But my fluting influences my whistling a lot, so when I'm booked to do a workshop, I need to practise the whistle quite a lot beforehand...the biggest difference is breathing I think, as the flute needs more air than the whistle, I constantly have too much air available as my breathing is still flute-influenced...

I also play the pipes, B/C accordion and piano and have no problems switching between them. My method is to learn the melodies and fingering patterns seperately, so if I know a tune in G major and know the scale of G major good enough on one of my instruments, I ususally can play it on it...not really up to session speed, but it works. Accordion is the most difficult for me due to its ability to play two notes with one button, but also great fun...no embouchure required, no tuning required. Joy!
Unfortunately, I'm too stupid for any stringed instrument...

[Gordon]

I'm going with the 'plus' column - I think playing multiple instruments helps you become a better musician all 'round. If you're completely new to any instrument, of course, some things take time - I wouldn't recommend learning a bunch of instruments at the same time, if you're new to all of them. But once you play more than one instrument, learning a new one becomes easier, even if the instrument is wildly different. I also find that I improve on instruments I've set aside for awhile because of attention paid to rhythm and phrasing, etc., on the instrument I'd been playing more frequently.

[mutepointe]

I'm surprised by what my brain has been able to sort through and accomplish. There is not much of it left in working order. I agree with folks that it's improved my playing on multiple instruments. I started out on guitar and later in life went to wind instruments. I learned the whistle left-handed, simple flute left-handed, and the silver flute right-handed. I can now play the simple flute right-handed too. I was amazed that my brain could compartmentalize that. I've never been able to figure out the whistle right-handed.

I don't think our bodies or brains limit us but our desire to learn and of course, the time and the commitment to learn. Every time I learn a new instrument, I say to myself, "Snot nosed grade school kids can figure this out. So can I." It works.

[Grizzle]

I learn my tunes faster and better if I learn them on 2 or more instruments at about the same time. Multiple instruments allows me to avoid too much repetitive strain from any one instrument.

I really get a kick out of figuring out a tunes "home instrument." Seems like more often than not I find one instrument on which a particular tune sorta just makes more sense than the others. I always imagine its because it was the instrument it was originally "composed" on. Whatever the case, if I'm struggling with a tune on the fiddle I know to pick up a different instrument....and usually I find one that's ridiculously easy to play.

[mutepointe]

I really get a kick out of figuring out a tunes "home instrument." Seems like more often than not I find one instrument on which a particular tune sorta just makes more sense than the others. I always imagine its because it was the instrument it was originally "composed" on. Whatever the case, if I'm struggling with a tune on the fiddle I know to pick up a different instrument....and usually I find one that's ridiculously easy to play.

Excellent point. Thank you.