John Doonan, piccolo, tonguing query

[david_h]

I won't revive the earlier discussion. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77253 John Doonan was also mentioned on a recent thread.

I have been listening to John Doonan's "Flute for the Feis" and "At the Feis". If I am not hearing it wrongly he is tonguing much more than most Irish flute players. More like a whistle player and maybe more than many of those. I am wondering:

Is this something to do with it being a piccolo ?
Is it something to do with playing for dancing ?
Did he tongue as much on flute ?
Was it maybe a local NE England 'irish style' ?
... and if it is not tonguing what is it ?

I don't tongue at all on flute at the moment but am thinking of allowing myself to be influenced by his style.

[Holmes]

I sat next to John regularly at sessions or playing for the Feis a lot years ago and had a few sessions with him over the years (and just before his death) either in the Newcastle Irish Centre , or in the Cumberland Arms in Byker (when it was a proper pub). As did Tom McElvogue - he might chip in here as I think he's better at analysing styles than I.

I think he did the glottal stop rather than tonging mostly, I'm sure he was capable of doing both and may have mixed both.
I'd guess his stlye was influenced greatly by the musicians around him at the time, he certainly mixed with Northumbrian & Scottish musicians Joe Hutton, Willie Atkinson and Willie Taylor amongst many other, of course Northumbrian pipers play staccato by default so this may have influenced him. I'm sure that playing for dancers required emphasising the beat and this may have been another reason. When John played for the Feis in Newcastle and Glasgow often he'd be the only musicain, he'd play for 6-7 hours with minimal opportunity for a break.

John was a very individual player altogether and if he preferred it - he'd just do it his way. It would be well considered, he was very exacting and skilled in everything he did (great craic altogether).

Holmes Mooney & Wood play; The Laird Of McNabb - http://www.box.net/shared/5tx0jxtd7cbbgjfsjkp0 (Holmes McNaughton D Blackwood eight key).
Save your hot air for blowing down your flute

[an seanduine]

I'm just a noob at simple system piccolo, but I find that there doesn't seem anything intrinsic about the instrument that demands that you tongue or not. I play one of Jem Hammond's little black beauties and a simple system anonymous German pitched at A440 Hz. Jem's picc has a bore closer to 12 mm. and is optimized to play the first two octaves, and so has a much more robust tonality than my 6 key German, which has a quite narrow bore of about 10.5 mm. at the HJ. I find Jem's cylindrical bore with the Fajardo wedge lends itself readily to almost all of the usual flute tool-kit of taps. cuts, rolls, and cranns. There doesn't seem to be anything there that either demands or prevents you from using either tonguing or glottal stops.
My German picc has a much sweeter, more refined tone and is extremely responsive. Again I can either tongue or not. However, because it is a bit crowded with the keys, I have to be very precise in my finger placements to execute cuts,taps and rolls cleanly.
I really like Doonan's playing. He has great clarity, precision, and evenness of tone. . .never shrill or weak. He must have had fabulous chops. I can't tell if he is tonguing or using glottal stops. . .the picc is so responsive that the tone just shuts off cleanly either way. For my own part, I am trying to get away from tonguing in the interest of not interfering with my embouchure work. I find I get a better blow without tonguing.

Just my two cent's worth,
Bob

[david_h]

Thanks Holmes for that information, and confirming that I was recognising something characteristic in his playing. I hear a lot of english dance music and possibly tend to play irish tunes with too much bounce. Doonan seems to have the emphasis without the bounce so I am drawn to his style (which I guess might work for english tunes as well).

Thanks to an seanduine, especially for the point about the piccolo being responsive with the clean cut-offs which I guess lead me to think it was mainly tonguing. When I started on the flute I couldn't tongue - the interfence wth the air flow made me lose the note. I do a lot of glottal stopping but hadn't realised it could be done so fast !

I am hankering after one of Jem's piccolos but keep putting off ordering until I get to a stage where I have a chance of playing at less than full volume.

[Holmes]

When I say glottal stop - I should say diaphragm in addition, to include that in the technique too.


Holmes Mooney & Wood play; The Laird Of McNabb - http://www.box.net/shared/5tx0jxtd7cbbgjfsjkp0 (Holmes McNaughton D Blackwood eight key).

Save your hot air for blowing down your flute

[david_h]

Thanks. So breath control generally. Which comes to me more naturally than the finger twiddles so I will work on it and pay better attention to it when listening to flute players, especially maybe N England and Scottish ones.

I think I hear an example of an seanduine's point about instrument 'response' in your youtube posts of the same tune on flutes Bb through to F. Very interesting, thanks.

I had better keep practicing the rolls etc though

[Holmes]

Well done for spotting JD though, he's one of the seminal players and a real trad player (under rated today) - totally unaffected. I first heard him when he featured regularly on BBC Radio 1, John Peel sessions. I'd had no previous experience of Irish Music but often heard JD & The Bothy Band on J Peel's promramme. That was before I played traditional music at all.


Holmes Mooney & Wood play; The Laird Of McNabb - http://www.box.net/shared/5tx0jxtd7cbbgjfsjkp0 (Holmes McNaughton D Blackwood eight key).
http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/103009 ... id_OEV_P_P The Rub - All Bairns Dance 1990 - D Pratten's Boosey

Save your hot air for blowing down your flute

[mcelvogue]

Great to hear a discussion on John Doonan. I'd agree that he was a hugely under-rated musician on the trad scene most likely because the piccolo wasn't really seen as a trad-friendly instrument (from what I can remember at the time anyway). One of the really interesting things about John's playing was that he very rarely used rolls as ornamentation - not in any standard way. Most of his music was accentuated using tonguing (I think) and he was probably the best exponent of the cut that I know of - knowing which notes to cut in order to punch in the rhythm.

His finger work was simply awesome producing a wonderful bubbly style of playing. I learned a huge amount from playing with John mostly from his fingering but also the rhythm which was ingeniously injected through combinations of cuts and tonguing. John's use of cuts and rolls from my memory was closer to the style of Seamus Tansey's in which Seamus Tansey also had fantastic big flowery rolls employing cuts in places nobody else seems to. They remind me of the exquisite rolls Joe Burke uses on the accordion quite unlike any other accordionist and maybe that is where these style of rolls and ornamentation come from?

He was also great at creating his own settings of tunes which suited both his style and the instrument. I didn't realise this until I played with other musicians and found that I had learned a John Doonan setting of a tune which was unique to John and not played anywhere else. His setting of the "Jug of Punch" comes to mind whereby I also would have first heard the keys being used to great effect on the piccolo. A master musician if there ever was one. Sadly missed.

Tom

PS Loved the video and tune you linked to Holmesy, it seems strange after all these years to see the Rub in action. Any more vids knocking about ?

[Holmes]

PS Loved the video and tune you linked to Holmesy, it seems strange after all these years to see the Rub in action. Any more vids knocking about ?

Hi T

Yes lots of lower quality vids of The Rub like the one you mention - but better than that; here is part (the bit I can fit in my scanner)(I need to put the whole lot in your big posh one (scanner) to get the full effect) This was part of a poster that was to celebrate JD unfortunately John passed away just before this concert - it went ahead anyway - his family (also gifted Irish musicians and dancers Kevin Mick et al.) lead the tribute.

H
http://www.box.net/shared/xsh39ddn71 (Cocobolo H&Mc D Flute)
Save your hot air for blowing down your flute

[an seanduine]

Great information.
I wonder if anyone can say what sort of piccolo that Doonan used?

Bob

[Holmes]

Just to complete our personal recollections of our friendship/mentoring (T Mc & I) of this fine musician, I enclose the text published on the Doonans webthing; http://www.thedoonanfamily.co.uk/John.htm
This elder statesman of Irish music was known in the folk world as the ‘Time Lord’ and in the Tyneside shipyards as the ‘Whistling Welder’ where it is rumoured he could fire red hot rivets from his piccolo. A godfather of Irish music he was sought out by musicians far and wide for his amazing mental library of dance tunes and slow airs.

John’s father and grandfather were both fiddlers and as a child John had access to a large range of instruments, which he taught himself to play but finally settled for the flute. In 1946 he formed a ceilidh band which consisted of 4 fiddlers (one his own father), 2 accordions, a piano (occasionally played by his daughter, who at the age of 11 could barely reach the pedals), drums and 4 flutes. During this time John gravitated towards playing the piccolo – PA systems not being what they are today and having only one microphone for the band – the piccolo gave out greater volume than the flute.
When Irish dancing was introduced to Tyneside John was there at the beginning to accompany the dancers. His ability to play to the strict tempo demanded by this very disciplined art form meant he was very much in demand and played for Feisanna (competitions) for many years all over the United Kingdom, often accompanying his daughter and granddaughters when they tread the boards. Irish dancers and teachers everywhere were delighted when John produced ‘Flute for the Feis’ on Rubber Records.

John was very proud when two of his sons, Michael and Kevin took up instruments and carried on the tradition of producing great Irish music. Michael with vocals, the piccolo, flute, whistle and uillean pipes and Kevin on the fiddle. Together with friends of the family (Stu Luckley on guitar and Phil Murray on bass guitar, both established musicians in their own right) they formed the Doonan Family Band (DFB) and produced two discs – Fenwick’s Window and Manna from Hebburn. John’s two granddaughters, Frances and Sarah provide the dancing and much needed glamour to the band! Frances has been able to fill the void left by her grandfather by her contributions not just through dance but by playing the flute!



Cool lot?

John became World Champion Piccolo Player which he regarded as the zenith of his musical career but his greatest consolation when he passed away in 2002 must have been the satisfaction of seeing his family continue, through their talents, the tradition of Irish music and dance as they entertain audiences both at home and abroad.

H
Holmes Mooney & Wood play; The Laird Of McNabb - http://www.box.net/shared/5tx0jxtd7cbbgjfsjkp0 (Holmes McNaughton D Blackwood eight key).
Save your hot air for blowing down your flute

[david_h]

Yes, great information. Thanks both.

Tom's comments about the cuts are interesting. It lead me to have a closer look at the solo tracks in Audacity using the 'Pitch' representation of the sound trace. As is usual with wind instruments all the cuts show up plain to see and it is almost always possible to determine which finger is used (the pitch sounds for long enough even if the note is not really audible). He does lots of cuts on the start of notes, almost always after the new note has sounded briefly and often with the lowest finger. It looks like there is a gradation between such initial cuts and actually playing the next higher note near the middle of the 'main' note giving those little warbles.

But I haven't yet found any taps that I am sure about. Usually they show in the trace as a tiny section at a lower pitch - even in tutorial demonstrations of how brief a tap should be. There are lots of brief gaps which I think are all breath control but it could be some are taps that don't properly close the lower hole but still break the main note (and are some maybe letting a finger leak along with breath control ?).

I need to look at other peoples tonguing and glottal stops more but my impression is he is not usually using them to give a strong attack to the new note other than a very clear start.

[LorenzoFlute]

I never use taps, always cuts. I think not all flute players use taps...

[an seanduine]

Excellent, david_h. I wouldn't've thought to use Audacity as an analytic.
I do use taps, even on the piccolo in addition to cuts. . .but do understand that it is a bit easier to get a clean response to a tap on the piccolo than the flute. I wonder if you can distinguish between hard and soft articulations with Audacity. For example between a "ta" type of tonguing and a softer "du" type of attack.

Bob

[david_h]

I wonder if you can distinguish between hard and soft articulations with Audacity. For example between a "ta" type of tonguing and a softer "du" type of attack.

I suspect it would if they sounded different enough but I often can't hear the different between a glottal stop and tonguing. I find the technique most useful for learning to recognise what I am hearing and highlighting some of what gives differences in style. For example John Doonan's notes usually start 'cleanly' after a stop which is very different from some of the Belfast flute players where there is often a little burst of extra harmonics and the higher octave - but we can hear the effect of that. Beware that the gaps between notes are so short that natural or added reverberation can introduce some of previous note.

I find it one of these things that can be handy when it works and gives information that helps with my ear training. I listened and 'watched' John Doonan's King of the Fairies. Playing as for dancing he emphasises the folded 'low Bs' rather than holding back on them as many flute players do when playing with instruments that have the low note. The trace show how he varys the way he cuts them to C# and makes very obvious that a lot of the emphasis on the first note of the tune comes from playing a strong C# after the introduction before dropping to B. Good ears would have got that quickly- mine would have taken some time.