What's "In Tune" for Irish flutes?

[Akiba]

While listening to the recordings from "Flute Players at Gathering in West Cork, 2010" ( http://www.itma.ie/audio/cruinniu_na_bhfliuit.html ), I was wondering about what acceptable tuning is for Irish flute. Out of the 10 tracks, 6 have solo flute with pitched accompaniment (Patsy Hanley, tracks 1 and 9; Hammy; Catherine; Conal; Harry). Out of those tracks, to my ears, only Harry is "truly" in tune, i.e. all his notes seem to be in tune in relation to the stringed instrument he's playing with. Hammy seems close. The others, to my ears, seem quite a bit off quite a bit of the time.

I know in sessions and people I play with here, if I'm slightly off I get called on it and have to be very vigilant about intonation to play near the expectations of my peers. Certainly, I am nowhere near the player any of the above mentioned are. But I just wonder what others think about intonation for Irish flute players in general and these recordings specifically.

[crookedtune]

If you're not in tune, how can you aspire to the symphony?

Sorry, I'm in the 'ragged but right' camp, within reason. It has to be pretty well off to offend my ears.

[Holmes]

Fiddle players need to instinctively know where to place their fingers to make the instrument sound in-tune when playing, similarly flute players need to know or be able to "hear" the note that they are aiming for. Many don't do it very well. A few do (very well). It isn't as dependent on the flute as many wish to think - more on the player!

H

http://www.box.net/shared/fb97k2ndig - Hornpipe
http://www.box.net/shared/evf8qpuoj6 - reel

[MTGuru]

Sorry, I'm in the 'ragged but right' camp, within reason. It has to be pretty well off to offend my ears.

Yeah, I'm more or less like you. Not because I don't hear it, but my tolerance for hearing wonky tuning is fairly high. But from experience, tolerance is very individual, and I know some who react viscerally like nails on a blackboard if they hear playing even a few cents off from their expectations.

Groups like sessions give more leeway, IMO. Often you'll have 12-TET and JI instruments playing together anyway, and the resulting "pitch shimmer" is a part of the overall sound. In a melody + accompaniment situation like Akiba's recordings, I expect more deliberate attention to good tuning and consistent intonation.

But once you leave 12-TET, to some degree you're in the realm of "flexi-pitch" for personal pitch choices, particularly for 3rds, 6ths and 7ths (F#, B, C#/C-nat). One person's sour may be another's "what I meant to play". That may account for some of what Akiba's hearing in the "off" tracks. And adapting your ear to "flexi-hearing" is something that can be trained.

As for the session pitch police that Akiba describes, well that just seems kinda prickish. Assuming your intonation is basically good, and unless you're really far off, there's nothing that can kill the fun of session playing worse than the distraction of having to worry constantly about a few cents here and there, in fear of overly punctilious peers and alpha dogs. Hrrumph.

[Julia Delaney]

“…there's nothing that can kill the fun of session playing worse than the distraction of having to worry constantly about a few cents here and there…”

I'm with Norman rather than Froggy on this one.

It is a question of degree, isn’t it. Having spent time in flute-makers’ shops over the years I know how hard they work to get their flutes to play in tune. That said, all flutes are basically out of tune and need to be played mindfully, with an ear out for intonation.

Although tuning isn't everything, there are few things more distracting in a session -- and which kills the fun of flute-playing -- than a fluter who is over-blowing in the upper octave. You can't tell which flute is out of tune and it sounds awful. Thankfully I play concertina as well, and that’s a great option when playing with another fluter who isn’t listening. I can hear other players being pulled into better tune when I play the fixed-pitch instrument. You have to listen to your flute as well as to the fixed-pitch instrument.

If it’s just you with the flute, and fiddles and whistles, then you have to tune to, and listen to, the person who is most in tune. Moving the slide is just the most basic way of setting a reference point. It's like tuning the fiddle. I get a kick out of watching fiddlers tuning each string with a tuning aid. That won't help a fiddler know where to put his fingers. Savvy fluters will tune to G and play the octaves as loud and hard as they’d be playing in the session. I.e., tuning to low G doesn’t mean that your upper-octave G will be in tune.

It isn’t hard to learn to play in tune, and paying attention shouldn’t kill the fun of playing with other people. A lot of the older players just don’t care about tuning. Unfortunately a lot of the younger players don’t care, either. It isn’t that Harry’s flute is in better tune than the other instruments – because it isn’t. Harry just cares more and listens more carefully to what other people are doing.

[Nanohedron]

"pitch shimmer"

What a delightful term. "Folks, our pitch shimmer is so scintillating that my ears are going blind."

Dealing with a sharpish A and and flattish F# aside, the most outstandingly problematic note on these simple-system instruments is, for me, crossfingered Cnat. Very often it's around the low side of the midpoint between C# and Cnat, C neutral, if you will (and what I've been calling "C Supernatural" 'cause it's fun - who started that, anyway?). Molloy himself plays his Cs that way, or has done enough in the past, at least. Recently a fellow played a recording I hadn't heard and had me play "Guess the Fluteplayer". I listened for a bit, chewed on the possibilities, and when I heard those Cs, that clinched it. "Matt Molloy," I said. Bingo. Nano gets a cookie.

There's this argument you hear now and again that that sort of indistinct neither-fish-nor-fowl 7th is very traditional not only to Ireland (I've known some uilleann pipers who even approve of it across the board because of that) but also in traditional music and song up and down the entire UK as well. I'm told that apparently the phenomenon has been documented enough on recordings to give the argument legs. I have to say that at the end of the day mine is a modern ear, so something in me almost always wants a fairly clear distinction between C# and Cnat ("Nyaah" moments excepted), and the clearer the better. I can't seem to shake that.

[jemtheflute]

It isn’t that Harry’s flute is in better tune than the other instruments – because it isn’t. Harry just cares more and listens more carefully to what other people are doing.

I'll second that. At the Berkenhage Flute Weekend in Belgium last year, Harry's flute was getting passed around in a late night slow air sesh and I got passed it and told to play (innocently minding my own befuddled business, I was, honest!). I can't now remember what flute it is (antique - don't recall maker - not one of the obvious) but it's a beast - and has very odd (unusual) voicing/tuning. Took me several bars to start to find my way away from glaring bum notes and I was still not getting it reliably right by the end - though much better. I didn't do too badly for a zombie adjusting on the fly (and I'm pretty used to swapping between flutes and making adjustments) and would "find" it with proper familiarity .... The lass who got it after me couldn't come to terms with it at all, and most of the others who tried it also took time to start to get the hang of it. Harry plays it like an angel.

[Nanohedron]

[Cleaned up and ready for business again. - Mod]

[Julia Delaney]

Jem, Harry probably played a Murray, whose flutes he likes a lot. Murrays have a distinct voice. They are wet compared to Olwells or Grinters, which can sound very dry. For lack of better words. Murrays like to be played hard, with a very focused attack. Tuning isn't everything. Oh, and Harry is, in fact, an angel. A genuine bodhisattva.

Nano: I remember asking a fiddler I played with whether she used a C or a C# in that particular place. "Somewhere in between," she said. In a lot of the Irish music some particular notes can be fudged. Here too, tuning isn't everything.

[crookedtune]

I think that's one of the things we forget in our pursuit of "perfect" instruments. What draws many to "folk" music is the immediacy of the emotion it conveys, much of which is derived from tonal ambiguity.

Irish flutes (like fiddles) are pliable, and can much more accurately mimic the human voice than, say, a piano.

When an Irish flute player is obviously out of tune, I think it's less a case of not having tuned, and more a case of not really listening.

[benhall.1]

Jem, Harry's flute in your Berkenhage pictures that you showed me is his Murray, right enough. When I had a try of it last year, I didn't have a problem with tuning. The problem I had was stopping the thing shouting. Hard to control the beast.

As for general tuning amongst the sort of flute players one meets in sessions in Ireland, my main complaint is that they are almost always sharp, and get sharper as the night wears on. There was a lovely little street session in Drumshanbo one year, which started with just me (on fiddle), a tin whistler (playing an Oak, if anyone's interested, and getting a truly lovely sound out of it), a concertina player and a very gentle bodhrán player. Then, in the space of about 10 minutes 7 flutists joined us. After quite a short while (5 minutes?) the conertina playerr and the whistler couldn't keep playing, because they were, relative to the flutes, so flat. I tried to get people to tune a couple of times, but they'd all dutifully play their As and play them perfectly in tune, and then rattle off into a set of blasting reels a quarter tone sharp.

Another thing that quite of lot of the ordinary session flutists in Ireland seem to do is to play sharp in the upper half of the second octave, whatever other tuning they're on.

So, as far as sessions go, I'm with others on this one, in that I think when flutists are out of tune, a lot of the time it's because they don't listen.

OTOH (and I'm really trying not to launch into my extended thesis here ) this C supernatural thing has been talked about a lot, right from Henebry and before, and certainly plenty since then. It's quite deliberate, used by both flutists and fiddlers, and any other instruments that can do it - whistles, pipes ... I've even heard a (particularly good) banjo player do it by bending the string a bit. C supernatural is not 'out of tune'. Also, FWIW, I prefer a slightly flat F# (flat compared with ET). But I dont get hung up about that one.

[an seanduine]

Just about the only thing I have really brought with me from playing band and orchestral flute is the ingrained habit/compulsion to listen to and try to play in tune with the musicians around me.
In a small session, the fiddlers tend toward a 'consensus' tuning. Playing with concertinas is a bit more challenging. Add pipes and everything gets a bit more 'wet'.

Bob

[Julia Delaney]

Another thing that quite of lot of the ordinary session flutists in Ireland seem to do is to play sharp in the upper half of the second octave, whatever other tuning they're on.

It's not only true in Ireland, and on the whole I find Irish fluters much more critical of tuning than in the US.

[Nanohedron]

I tried to get people to tune a couple of times, but they'd all dutifully play their As and play them perfectly in tune, and then rattle off into a set of blasting reels a quarter tone sharp.

Seen that happen before, right enough. Makes me want to do something rash.

Another thing that quite of lot of the ordinary session flutists in Ireland seem to do is to play sharp in the upper half of the second octave, whatever other tuning they're on.

Huh. Maybe that's why some fluters have accused me of being flat up there. Not that I'm in better tune, mind you, but...oh, hell. Maybe I just am, and that's it. I dunno. But I'm terribly conscious of my tuning. I seem to recall someone once said not to worry and just play (!), but that's incomprehensible to me. If I'm unhappy with my tuning I can't enjoy the playing. Also for me, anything less than my best tuning is as good as saying I don't give a fig about anyone else. And that counts, I don't care what you say.

So, as far as sessions go, I'm with others on this one, in that I think when flutists are out of tune, a lot of the time it's because they don't listen.

Ditto. And what's really crazy-making for me is that it's not like we're playing fiddles with that resonance boring thru our heads and making it difficult to hear others; we are able to hear ourselves relative to others far, far better. So not listening has to be the answer. I mean, right?

[Julia Delaney]

Right!