Suggestion needed for Irish tune (to go with some others)

[Kypfer]

Hi,
This seemed like the best place to ask

As a relative newbie to the world of whistles, I'm picking up a few easy tunes slowly. Two tunes I've just about got to grips with are the Scottish "The Burning of The Piper's Hut" and the Welsh "Bwrlwm". It struck me there's a degree of similarity between the two and thought it might be nice to develop a medley of similar tunes from different cultures, so if anyone has a suggestion for an Irish tune (or an English one, for that matter), that might "fit" with these other two I'd appreciate it. I've dug through a hatful of ABC files from various sources, but as yet not found anything that blends nicely ... though I have found a few other tunes that have gone onto the "list of stuff to try".

Thanks,
Chris

[benhall.1]

Have you got the dots (or ABCs) for Bwrlwm? I don't know if I know it ...

[Kypfer]

X:1
T:Bwrlwm
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:G
E2 B2 B3 A | G2 F2 E2 FG | ABAG FGFE | DEFA G2 F2 | E2 B2 B3 A | G2 F2 E2 FG |
! ABAG FGFE | DEFD E4 :|: EFGF EFGF | EFGA B2 B2 | DEFE D3 E |
! F2 A2 G2 F2 | EFGF EFGF | EFGA B2 B2 | DEFE D3 A | G2 F2 E4 :|

... also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj6YesxUNjo for a slightly more ornamented version

[benhall.1]

Thank you.

King of the Fairies would seem the obvious follow on ... I'll have a think about others.

[cboody]

Here's a Breton Tune commonly known around here as "Becka's Breton Tune" because Becka Schaeffer brought it to the area. There are several other tunes like this in the Breton repertoire.

X: 142
T:An Dro
T:"Breton Dance Tune"
M:C
L:1/8
R:An Dro
Z:Lesl Harker, woodenflute mailing list
K:Em
|: E2B2 B2 AB | c2B2 AGFG | AFAF B2A2 |1 GFEF G2F2 :|2 GEFG E4 ||
|: e2e2 f2 gf | e2e2 fefg | a2b2 b2a2 |1 gfef g2f2 :|2 gefg e4 ||

[cboody]

Here's a classic Carolan that seems to fit your needs.

X:087occ
T:Miss MacDermott (or The Princess Royal)
C:Turlough O'Carolan (1670 - 1738)
M:2/4
L:1/16
K:Emin
BA|G2F2 E2BA|G2F2 E2B2|c2B2 A2dc|BcBA G2B2|
ABAG FGFE|D2C2 B,2BA|G2FE GFE^D|E4E2||
B2|e3^d e2f2|g2G2 G2g2|gfed cBAG|FGAF D2EF|
G2FG A2GA|B2B2 e4|d4c2dc|B4A2BA|
AGGF EGFE|DEDC B,2BA|G2FE GFE^D|E4E2 |]

[Kypfer]

cboody & benhall
Many thanks for the excellent suggestions ... I hadn't even considered Breton music as a source ... just goes to demonstrate how new I am to this

So, I'm going to have to practice a lot more and get competent at switching registers. I still struggle going from "all fingers off" to "most/all fingers down" accurately, I keep missing holes

I'll look around some more, in a few weeks, for an "English" tune to make up the set.

So many tunes, so little time

[benhall.1]

Dang! Cboody, you'll get me into one of my hobby-horses. I believe that the Princess Royal is an English tune in origin, though in truth there is about equal evidence available to argue it to be of Irish origin as there is to support my belief that it is English in origin. One thing I'm absolutely convinced about, though, is that it pre-dates O'Carolan. I haven't got it available (I should catalogue these things better), but I know that there are references to the tune from before he was born. It's only after that that we get into the 'well, where did it originally come from then?' argument. And, although I have my belief, that's all it is, and it really doesn't matter - cracking tune.

I have a beautiful version of the tune which I learnt from Peter Kennedy's fiddle playing. He was taught it by Johnny Doherty. I love these 'ancestral lines' of tune learning ...

[talasiga]

this is a well known one
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/726
that may be a good flow on for you, Kypfer

[cboody]

Dang! Cboody, you'll get me into one of my hobby-horses. I believe that the Princess Royal is an English tune in origin, though in truth there is about equal evidence available to argue it to be of Irish origin as there is to support my belief that it is English in origin. One thing I'm absolutely convinced about, though, is that it pre-dates O'Carolan. I haven't got it available (I should catalogue these things better), but I know that there are references to the tune from before he was born. It's only after that that we get into the 'well, where did it originally come from then?' argument. And, although I have my belief, that's all it is, and it really doesn't matter - cracking tune.

I can tell you what Donal O'Sullivan says about that issue in his book on Carolan: "It is perhaps worth mentioning that there is an English folk song, of fairly wide distribution in England, which is entitled 'The Princess Royal' but which has no connection with Carolan's melody." I h aven't seen the tune in question. If you've some sources I'd like to. I've a friend that sings Arethusa to the "Carolan" version. As you say it would be interesting to know, but whatever the answer it is a cracking tune!

[cboody]

Just for reference here are the versions of "The Princess Royal" found by a search at abcnotation.com:

X: 1
T:Ianthe (Princess Royal)
M:4/4
L:1/4
S:Simpson (BBBM)
N:Here's what Simpson says about Princess Royal in The British Broadside ballads and their Music:
N:This air, entitled 'Iantha' is included among "Th Tunes of the French Dances", a supplement
N:to the third edition of 'The Dancing master', c.1662, N. 28. It is not in the 1669 supplement
N:but is found twice in 'Apollo's Banquet', 1670, No. 176, 'Ianythae' and No.200 "La Princess
N:Royale" and continues under the latter title in subsequent editions of that work
S:Pete Stewart <pete:wintonstables.fsnet.co.uk> tradtunes 2003-1-5
K:GMin
B/A/ | Ggg>^f | g3 g/a/ | bff>_e | dBBc/d/ | _e/d/c/B/ B>A | A3 :|
a | b>d d3/4f/4 e3/4g/4 | f2e>f | d>_e c>B | B3 B/A/ | Gcc>b | c3 f/_e/ | db^f>g | g3 :|

(I suspect this might be G dorian.....)

X:19
T:Carolan's Princess Royal
C:Turlough O Carolan
Q:1/4=90
I:abc2nwc
M:2/4
L:1/16
K:Bb
dc|B2A2 G2dc|B2A2 G2d2|e2ed c2fe|dedc B2d2|
cdcB ABAG|F2E2 D2dc|B2AG BAG^F|G4G2:|
|:d2|g2gf g2a2|b2B2 B2b2|bagf edcB|ABcA F2GA|
B2AB c2Bc|d2d2 g3g|f2d2 e2fe|dcB2 c3d|
cBBA GBAG|F2E2 D2dc|B2AG BAG^F|G4G2:|

More often seen in Eminor (This one is really in G minor with the key sig mis-named).

X:7233
T:The Princes Royal
T:The Princess Royal
O:england
B:Gow's 2nd Repository, early 1800s
N:transposed from Gm
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Dm
D/E/|F2EF D2AG|FGEF D3A|B3A G2cB|ABGA F4|
F2dF E2cE|DEFD A,2 AG|FEFD A,D^CE|D2 D2 D2:|]
A|d^cde d^cde|f2 F2 F2 de|fedc BAGF|EFGE C4|
F2EF G2FG|A2 A2 d4|c2 F2 B4|A2 D2 G4|
FGFE DEFD|^CDEC A,2 AG|FEFD A,D^CE|D2 D2 D2:|]

(A variant of the Carolan tune above)

There are lots of variants of each of these... Maybe the two very different tunes are part of the confusion as to source??

[benhall.1]

I wish I'd kept all the stuff I found last time. I haven't got the energy to look it all up again now ...

But ... the one that I know of that pre-dates Carolan is, essentially, the same tune as the one which is sometimes attributed to him. Where it comes from is another matter ...

I'll try and find some more energy later. It is an interesting thing ...

[Kypfer]

As I started this thread, I've been keeping an eye on it, and I'm fascinated to see how it's evolved (as is often the case

I've built up a downloaded collection of ABC files over the last few weeks, most of which I've not looked at properly, inevitably, but a collection of Morris tunes from http://www.themorrisring.org/more/Tunes/ features a whole carraigeful of Princess Royals, some of which vary in detail, some of which seem quite significantly different ... one wonders if this tune that is so popular in different parts of England is by "adoption" or by long-standing tradition?

Either way, if you'd like, I can edit the listings I've got and post just the Princess Royal variations here, or you may care to download the complete collections for yourselves, there may be something else of interest to you within.

[benhall.1]

This is pretty good for a general discussion of some of the mystery surrounding the tune The Princess Royal.

And this is a link to one of the references for that folkopedia article.

I'm sure I've found more in the past, but it's a start ...

I know, and play, or sing, four different versions of the tune, but I think there are probably a few more than that. In fact, I see, after a cursory glance, that the first few tunes given junder the name The Princess Royal in The Fiddler's Companion are different from any of mine. I shall have a look at the others and see if any of mine are in there ...

[cboody]

As I started this thread, I've been keeping an eye on it, and I'm fascinated to see how it's evolved (as is often the case

I've built up a downloaded collection of ABC files over the last few weeks, most of which I've not looked at properly, inevitably, but a collection of Morris tunes from http://www.themorrisring.org/more/Tunes/ features a whole carraigeful of Princess Royals, some of which vary in detail, some of which seem quite significantly different ... one wonders if this tune that is so popular in different parts of England is by "adoption" or by long-standing tradition?

Either way, if you'd like, I can edit the listings I've got and post just the Princess Royal variations here, or you may care to download the complete collections for yourselves, there may be something else of interest to you within.

I have all of the Black Book of Morris tunes in abc. I still hope to get around to comparison of differences among the various tunes from various places. My understanding is that most of the larger variants (extended melodies, extra repeats, truncated sections, dropped repeats, etc.) are due to differences in the dances for which the tunes are used while the smaller ones are typical melodic variants that are found in the folk tradition. I hope to get around to it.

If you have other variations beyond those given here, in Fiddler's Companion, or in the Black Book I'd love to see them. You could PM me and we could take this off list.