Sorry guys, I know this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the forum, nor could I find enough on the web. So, anyone have a good diagram for DYI replacing thread on tenons? And also, I just bought ordinary silk thread (looks quite thin). Is anything else needed?
Thanks! Thalatta
Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
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jemtheflute
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Here's a text I prepared earlier..... 
Thread Joint Lapping – a quick guide
Traditionally joint lapping is done with a loosely spun linen (flax) or hemp thread, waxed before or during application. If you can get it, by all means use it. Bagpipe makers seem to use it and have no trouble getting supplies, but I have never been able to find a reliable source of such thread. The linen threads one can commonly find at haberdashers are usually highly twisted, quite thick and hard “button threads” which are not suitable for this use. Apparently (though not unexpectedly) linen or hemp are not immune to swelling with moisture, according to a bagpipe website I perused recently. Cotton, too will swell when moistened if you don't treat it properly for the purpose, but do so and lay a good lapping correctly for a snug but not tight fit and all should be well (see below). Modern synthetic threads might not swell when wet, but are far harder surfaced raising possible risk of socket erosion. Tight spun threads of any kind are harder to lay evenly, and I don't think you can get loose-spun synthetics very readily, if at all. As long as it is loose-spun (NOT a hard spun sewing thread) and well greased, cotton thread is fine. Therefore, for many years and with good success (and no ill effects to any flute) I have used embroidery “silk” thread – actually pure cotton. This is readily available in an infinite variety of colours from any haberdasher. The only drawback I have ever found with it compared to linen is that it is less durable – a frequently used joint will need the lapping renewed every 3-4 years as eventually the thread wears out. I have never had problems with it swelling. It comes in small 8 metre skeins. The thread consists of 6 lightly twisted strands (themselves being medium twisted 2-ply threads). If you care about the finished colour, choose a colour several shades lighter than you’d like as the grease will darken it considerably. I proceed thus:
First, unravel the skein of embroidery thread and make sure it is tangle-free. Separate the six sub-threads into two groups of three at one end and split the entire length (being careful to run the twist out and not to tangle). An assistant to hold the ends you start from, or a door handle or nail on a wall or some such is necessary. Coil up the two triple threads around your hand (or wind onto a bobbin of some kind). Now you are ready for the flute.
Make sure all traces of old lapping have been removed from the tenon and clean it. Apply some cork grease to the trough/combings on the tenon and spread it. Start to wind on the thread by laying the starting end diagonally across the tenon and, starting from the inward end, winding over it to secure it (the grease will help, but the first few turns are tricky). No tying or glue is necessary. Always hold the joint of the flute in your left hand and wind over the top of it away from you (i.e. clockwise around the tenon when viewed end on). Use moderate tension, but not excessive – you need the thread to seat firmly but not to constrict the tenon. If the tenon is “combed” (has turned grooves), start by laying a turn of thread in each groove systematically. If it isn’t combed, just lay the thread neatly side by side until you have completed one layer to the outer end of the trough/combings. Now apply a generous layer of cork grease and spread it around. Lay the turns of thread at the extremities of the lapping a little tighter than the rest as they have to resist the drag of assembly/disassembly more. Work your way back down the tenon with another layer, filling in the gaps if covering combing grooves. Now grease again and check how you are doing by test assembling the joint. Always hold the section in your left hand still and introduce the tenon to the mortise, twisting the section in your right hand over and away from you (in the same direction as the lay of the lapping thread) as you push the parts together.
It is unlikely on most flutes that you will yet have a snug joint, so apply more grease and add another layer, continuing to grease, test for fit and so on until you have built up a sufficient lapping. Be careful to keep the profile of the binding flat/cylindrical (unless the mortise tapers inwards, in which case you will have to work out the correct lapping profile by eye and test-fit) and test frequently. You want a snug, even, but not over-tight fit, that does not rock laterally. If you lay too much thread, just unwind it back beyond where you will need to finish and re-apply it spread more widely – the last layer/turns need not be laid completely systematically side by side but adapted to achieve a good fit in the mortise socket. You can add thread to just a little beyond the point where the joint assembles easily as it will compress a little over the first few days of use, but don’t make it excessively tight or you risk cracking the socket. Never force a joint together with more than moderate firmness! If it won’t twist on with only moderate resistance, take some thread off. Check the surface is even and not convex or concave by observing the grease on the surface – if it doesn’t soak into the thread evenly, or if the joint rocks when assembled, you need to unwind some thread and re-lay it. Be liberal with the grease, and continue to be so for the first couple of weeks as the thread will continue to absorb it.
To finish the lapping, you need do no more than grease the end of the thread down when you are satisfied with the fit. Try to have the final turns of thread towards the middle of the lapping. Should you need to remove or add some thread as the joint settles, you can just scrape up the end with a fingernail. It is unlikely to start to unravel, especially if you assemble the joint correctly as described above (never twist against the wind of the thread). If you need to add more thread after cutting an end, the best thing to do is to unwind about 50cm of thread, cut it off and start laying on a new, longer piece, binding over the ends of the old and new pieces as you did at the start.
Just in case there is any swelling on exposure to moisture, it is advisable to check a newly laid lapping frequently during playing, say every 15 minutes while it is new and settling in, for say a week or so, and be sure not to leave the flute assembled. With due caution and care you would soon notice if there was any significant swelling of a new lapping and can easily remove some thread to adjust if you leave the end free as suggested above, at least until the new lapping beds down. I have tended to find that a new lapping will compress somewhat (rather than swell) as the layers of thread compact and settle and excess grease is squeezed out, and may even need additional thread after a few days or weeks.
When you have a completed lapping you are happy with and that has settled in for a week or two, you can do a more permanent “whipped” finish if desired. Unwind about 50cm of thread and rewind it laying the last 6-10 turns over a looped spare piece of thread with the loop pointing towards where the lapping will finish, then put the end of the last 5-6cm of your working thread through the loop you have bound over and carefully pull on the other ends (held together!) to draw the working thread-end under the last few turns of the lapping – pull it clear and tug it tight, then cut it off flush. That won’t unravel, but isn’t easy to adjust! (I don’t usually bother to do this any more.) A mid-way alternative – more secure than a free end but less so than a whipped-over one - is to lay in two half hitches in the last couple of turns of thread, making sure they lie in the same direction as you were winding.
It is worth mentioning that, of course, as with anything organic including most other parts of a wooden flute, significant changes in ambient humidity may affect the fit of a thread lapped joint. Both the thread lapping and also more significantly the wood and therefore the dimensions of the tenon and socket can fluctuate with changing conditions. You may need to remove some thread or add a little (or use e.g. a cigarette paper) after a few days when travelling between different climatic zones, or even at home between seasons. This is why I no longer routinely whip-finish my lappings.
Jem Hammond 24:3:2008
Thread Joint Lapping – a quick guide
Traditionally joint lapping is done with a loosely spun linen (flax) or hemp thread, waxed before or during application. If you can get it, by all means use it. Bagpipe makers seem to use it and have no trouble getting supplies, but I have never been able to find a reliable source of such thread. The linen threads one can commonly find at haberdashers are usually highly twisted, quite thick and hard “button threads” which are not suitable for this use. Apparently (though not unexpectedly) linen or hemp are not immune to swelling with moisture, according to a bagpipe website I perused recently. Cotton, too will swell when moistened if you don't treat it properly for the purpose, but do so and lay a good lapping correctly for a snug but not tight fit and all should be well (see below). Modern synthetic threads might not swell when wet, but are far harder surfaced raising possible risk of socket erosion. Tight spun threads of any kind are harder to lay evenly, and I don't think you can get loose-spun synthetics very readily, if at all. As long as it is loose-spun (NOT a hard spun sewing thread) and well greased, cotton thread is fine. Therefore, for many years and with good success (and no ill effects to any flute) I have used embroidery “silk” thread – actually pure cotton. This is readily available in an infinite variety of colours from any haberdasher. The only drawback I have ever found with it compared to linen is that it is less durable – a frequently used joint will need the lapping renewed every 3-4 years as eventually the thread wears out. I have never had problems with it swelling. It comes in small 8 metre skeins. The thread consists of 6 lightly twisted strands (themselves being medium twisted 2-ply threads). If you care about the finished colour, choose a colour several shades lighter than you’d like as the grease will darken it considerably. I proceed thus:
First, unravel the skein of embroidery thread and make sure it is tangle-free. Separate the six sub-threads into two groups of three at one end and split the entire length (being careful to run the twist out and not to tangle). An assistant to hold the ends you start from, or a door handle or nail on a wall or some such is necessary. Coil up the two triple threads around your hand (or wind onto a bobbin of some kind). Now you are ready for the flute.
Make sure all traces of old lapping have been removed from the tenon and clean it. Apply some cork grease to the trough/combings on the tenon and spread it. Start to wind on the thread by laying the starting end diagonally across the tenon and, starting from the inward end, winding over it to secure it (the grease will help, but the first few turns are tricky). No tying or glue is necessary. Always hold the joint of the flute in your left hand and wind over the top of it away from you (i.e. clockwise around the tenon when viewed end on). Use moderate tension, but not excessive – you need the thread to seat firmly but not to constrict the tenon. If the tenon is “combed” (has turned grooves), start by laying a turn of thread in each groove systematically. If it isn’t combed, just lay the thread neatly side by side until you have completed one layer to the outer end of the trough/combings. Now apply a generous layer of cork grease and spread it around. Lay the turns of thread at the extremities of the lapping a little tighter than the rest as they have to resist the drag of assembly/disassembly more. Work your way back down the tenon with another layer, filling in the gaps if covering combing grooves. Now grease again and check how you are doing by test assembling the joint. Always hold the section in your left hand still and introduce the tenon to the mortise, twisting the section in your right hand over and away from you (in the same direction as the lay of the lapping thread) as you push the parts together.
It is unlikely on most flutes that you will yet have a snug joint, so apply more grease and add another layer, continuing to grease, test for fit and so on until you have built up a sufficient lapping. Be careful to keep the profile of the binding flat/cylindrical (unless the mortise tapers inwards, in which case you will have to work out the correct lapping profile by eye and test-fit) and test frequently. You want a snug, even, but not over-tight fit, that does not rock laterally. If you lay too much thread, just unwind it back beyond where you will need to finish and re-apply it spread more widely – the last layer/turns need not be laid completely systematically side by side but adapted to achieve a good fit in the mortise socket. You can add thread to just a little beyond the point where the joint assembles easily as it will compress a little over the first few days of use, but don’t make it excessively tight or you risk cracking the socket. Never force a joint together with more than moderate firmness! If it won’t twist on with only moderate resistance, take some thread off. Check the surface is even and not convex or concave by observing the grease on the surface – if it doesn’t soak into the thread evenly, or if the joint rocks when assembled, you need to unwind some thread and re-lay it. Be liberal with the grease, and continue to be so for the first couple of weeks as the thread will continue to absorb it.
To finish the lapping, you need do no more than grease the end of the thread down when you are satisfied with the fit. Try to have the final turns of thread towards the middle of the lapping. Should you need to remove or add some thread as the joint settles, you can just scrape up the end with a fingernail. It is unlikely to start to unravel, especially if you assemble the joint correctly as described above (never twist against the wind of the thread). If you need to add more thread after cutting an end, the best thing to do is to unwind about 50cm of thread, cut it off and start laying on a new, longer piece, binding over the ends of the old and new pieces as you did at the start.
Just in case there is any swelling on exposure to moisture, it is advisable to check a newly laid lapping frequently during playing, say every 15 minutes while it is new and settling in, for say a week or so, and be sure not to leave the flute assembled. With due caution and care you would soon notice if there was any significant swelling of a new lapping and can easily remove some thread to adjust if you leave the end free as suggested above, at least until the new lapping beds down. I have tended to find that a new lapping will compress somewhat (rather than swell) as the layers of thread compact and settle and excess grease is squeezed out, and may even need additional thread after a few days or weeks.
When you have a completed lapping you are happy with and that has settled in for a week or two, you can do a more permanent “whipped” finish if desired. Unwind about 50cm of thread and rewind it laying the last 6-10 turns over a looped spare piece of thread with the loop pointing towards where the lapping will finish, then put the end of the last 5-6cm of your working thread through the loop you have bound over and carefully pull on the other ends (held together!) to draw the working thread-end under the last few turns of the lapping – pull it clear and tug it tight, then cut it off flush. That won’t unravel, but isn’t easy to adjust! (I don’t usually bother to do this any more.) A mid-way alternative – more secure than a free end but less so than a whipped-over one - is to lay in two half hitches in the last couple of turns of thread, making sure they lie in the same direction as you were winding.
It is worth mentioning that, of course, as with anything organic including most other parts of a wooden flute, significant changes in ambient humidity may affect the fit of a thread lapped joint. Both the thread lapping and also more significantly the wood and therefore the dimensions of the tenon and socket can fluctuate with changing conditions. You may need to remove some thread or add a little (or use e.g. a cigarette paper) after a few days when travelling between different climatic zones, or even at home between seasons. This is why I no longer routinely whip-finish my lappings.
Jem Hammond 24:3:2008
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
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Thalatta
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
That's not a text Jem, that's a book! Thanks a lot, it's really helpful!
Thalatta
Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
he does tend to over compensate a bit 
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It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
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hans
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Nice chapter, Jem!
What do you mean by "grease"?
What do you mean by "grease"?
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jemtheflute
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Sorry, didn't I say? Dang - forgot a detail!hans wrote:Nice chapter, Jem!
What do you mean by "grease"?
Normal commercially available woodwind joint/"cork" grease, whether served up in a tub or as a "lipstick". I would advise against using pure vaseline/petroleum jelly (too soft and tacky) and also against beeswax or (worse, but what Paul Davis used to advise!) beeswax and rosin (the impurities lead to it building up and it also tends to be sticky and to "grab").
There are lots of old threads about joint grease which I have read, but I've never tried either the ski wax or the plumbers toilet jointing/sealing grease that others have recommended at times, so can't evaluate them. The standard "cork" grease absorbs well into the thread, doesn't suffer too badly with temperature variations, only builds up as the tenons inevitably gather impurities (dust etc.) and doesn't have much of a tendency to grab save in very cold conditions after it has acquired additional gunge: even then, warming the joint in the hands and the first little bit of rotational friction when you get a stuck joint to start moving tend to restore its lubricant function.
(3rd edit - (I did write "cork grease" the first time I mentioned it!)
Last edited by jemtheflute on Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
My YouTube channel
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Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
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Jon C.
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Fine silk thread is fine, I also use fine polyester thread. Try to avoid the cotton thread, as it may swell with water absorbsion. Wrap the thread evenly, testing in the socket as you go. I just rub bees wax on the thread after it is wound. When it is snug in the socket, carefull not to force it, or it will crack the socket! I tie off the end with a simple half hitch, and wax it.
This can all be done faster then reading Jems post...
This can all be done faster then reading Jems post...
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul..."
Michael Flatley
Jon
Michael Flatley
Jon
Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Jon with a wind up Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
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hans
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Jem: "I would advise .... also against beeswax."
Jon: "I just rub bees wax on the thread after it is wound."
What is good and not good about bees wax?
Jon: "I just rub bees wax on the thread after it is wound."
What is good and not good about bees wax?
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jemtheflute
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Sorry again - I was re-editing about that and we've crossed. My experience of beeswax is that with repeated applications it builds up far more than cork grease does and you occasionally have to scrape it away - not too good for the surface of the lapping. It also absorbs water itself and you get a hard margarine (hydrogenated fat) plaque effect on your lapping. It is also far stickier and prone to jamming a joint in cold conditions, in my experience of it.hans wrote:Jem: "I would advise .... also against beeswax."
Jon: "I just rub bees wax on the thread after it is wound."
What is good and not good about bees wax?
Re: Jon's comments about cotton, see my preemptive comments in my "chapter". To reiterate, I have never had the problem Jon describes in 25 years of using the thread I use. If it wasn't thoroughly greased, yes, I suppose there could be a problem, but it hasn't happened yet.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
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Thalatta
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
I was wondering about the grease too: so, cork grease is fine, great. And I was wondering about silk thread: I just bought some ordinary silk thread in a "buttons, threads and materials shop" (ok ok I live in France and they call it a "mercerie"). And I was wondering if it was too thin or whatever. But it sounds liek it's all good.
Now, last question: how to start putting it on: any diagrams, videos? Does Hammy explain this in his DVD?
Now, last question: how to start putting it on: any diagrams, videos? Does Hammy explain this in his DVD?
Thalatta
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jemtheflute
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Thalatta wrote:Now, last question: how to start putting it on: any diagrams, videos? Does Hammy explain this in his DVD?
I haven't got a diagram, sorry, but I hope the wording is clear (allowing for language issues???). It is a bit less fiddly to do it the other way around and start from the outer end of the tenon - no major disadvantages, but from experience I prefer to keep my thread ends towards the inner end of the tenon. Once you've got it securely started, it's equally easy whichever way you began.Jemtheflute wrote:Start to wind on the thread by laying the starting end diagonally across the tenon and, starting from the inward end, winding over it to secure it (the grease will help, but the first few turns are tricky). No tying or glue is necessary.
IMO ordinary sewing thread, of whatever substance, is too thin to be ideal for lapping thread (though it will serve - it'll take a lot more winding and will be hard to keep even unless it can be applied mechanically). The embroidery thread I use as explained above comes out about the same thickness as the linen thread bagpipe makers use - about the same thickness as "button thread" but looser spun.
I guess "mercerie" is the French for "haberdashery" (sewing goods and accessories/the shop that sells them.)
Phil Bleazey has a short blurb on lappings here, but no diagrams. Quite a few of the other makers on The List offer assorted care advice that is worth reading, though you'll find plenty of variation and even conflict! E.g. Simon Polak and Martin Wenner have useful bits.
I haven't seen Hammy's DVD, but I know he prefers cork lappings - I learnt to do them from him at the first Flute Meeting. I'm sure he knows perfectly well how to do thread ones, though whether he demonstrates on the DVD I can't say.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
My YouTube channel
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Thalatta
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Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
Thanks again Jem. No language issues, I'm Irish (and as you know, I learned English from the best!). But I'm tired after a long day and couldn't remember the word I was looking for, even though it was right there in front of my eyes!
Actually your explantions are very clear.
Thanks again, Shane.
Actually your explantions are very clear.
Thanks again, Shane.
Thalatta
Re: Please, how to replace thread on tenons?
I've posted on this before.
I make a mixture of beeswax and jojoba oil.
I just cut a chunk of wax into a small plastic pill tub and microwave it for a few seconds until liquid then I add the jojoba. 2/1 wax to oil.
It cools into a paste that won't harden too much with cooler temps.
It's all very anti-bacterial and smells wonderful.
I make a mixture of beeswax and jojoba oil.
I just cut a chunk of wax into a small plastic pill tub and microwave it for a few seconds until liquid then I add the jojoba. 2/1 wax to oil.
It cools into a paste that won't harden too much with cooler temps.
It's all very anti-bacterial and smells wonderful.
Aanvil
-------------------------------------------------
I am not an expert
-------------------------------------------------
I am not an expert