Kevin Burke on practice

[highland-piper]

In another thread Steve asked me exactly what Kevin Burke said regarding practice. Fortunately I have a recording. I thought it was interesting enough, and perhaps important enough, to go into a separate thread.

Mr. Burke was the presenter at a workshop on Irish Fiddle in 1999 at the Fiddles of the World convention in Halifax. It was mostly an un-structured workshop, where Mr. Burke mainly fielded questions. He also demonstrated some tunes to illustrate his approach to the style. An unidentified man asks the question. The response takes several minutes, due to both pauses and also the numerous musical examples. There are several sentences that don't sound right on paper, but it's what he said, and it makes sense on the recording.

Q: "Can you talk a little bit about how you practice, how you learn a tune, and how it compares to how you used to when you were starting out?"

Kevin Burke: "Well at this point I don’t practice much. I play a lot. What I would recommend to anybody who wants to learn is scales, scales, scales, scales. Over and over and over and over and over again until you go mad. And then, um... I’d also recommend when you’re learning the tunes, break em down into tiny pieces. I might read a tune and it will be [plays two bars of some tune]. Let’s say it was that, um [plays 2 bars of Mrs. MacLeod of Rassay (which he had played for prior question]. I’d be maybe reading it, or hear it somewhere. I’d just think of that first bit. [Plays 2 bars, then plays half a bar twice over]. And I'd think maybe I should put a triplet in there; what would that sound like? [plays it like that 5 times]. You know, like that other tune I played that starts off with the rolls. I used to just sit for hours [plays a 1 bar phrase 4 times over]. In fact, I used to put the news paper on the floor. [laughs from audience] Read the paper [demonstrates position, plays same phrase 4 times]. I used to just do it over and over again reading the paper. [laughs]. All those little moves. You know, like the string crossing. [plays a 2 beat string crossing phrase 8 times. Now that’s kind of like an Irish scale, if you like. Arpeggios, you know [plays one up and down] that kind of thing. And another thing I’d recommend is to play an arpeggio one bow at a time [demonstrates one octave up and down with single bows] And then two at a time — or wait — then three at a time, which is an octave a time. [demonstrates two octaves]. Believe it or not that’s a waltz. 123 123 123 123 1. So what’s good then is to play it two at a time. So you play one bow at a time – one note to one bow, then three notes to one bow, then two. And then you start playing kind of inside out [demonstrates] so you’re bowing against the rhythm. The rhythm is three 123 123 123 123 1 and your bow is going 12 12 12. So that’s a great exercise. But mainly just soak your head in music. Think about what you want to hear, and try to get it out of your instrument."

The man asks a follow up question regarding classical method books. The answer is short and partly un-intelligible due to someone next to me coughing. I think he just says that he had a teacher who taught classical music. On a commercial VHS tape that I have he talks about growing up in England and having Irish music at home, but learning violin at school. Then an unidentified woman asks about strings and the talk about practice is over.

[fiddlerwill]

Thanks for that.
Kevin also uses a click track on some of his recordings . Check out this interview;http://seankenan.com/Interviews/FiddleI ... e2007.html

Q. You told us the other day that the metronome was, “an instrument of torture but it is fantastic.”
Oh yes, you have got to learn to play with a metronome. Even if you don't do it for life, just that experience helps. You think you are playing on the money and unless you are practicing with a metronome you are probably not.

So I personally feel that when fingers are pointed at me for 'giving bad advice' that since Kevin Burke agrees with me that it cant be so bad eh?

[Cathy Wilde]

! I'm in the habit of playing my tinwhistle mornings at the table as I finish my tea and whatever I was reading over breakfast. This morning I was actually playing my pipes while poring over a lengthy magazine article. Can't be sure if it's improved my rendering of the tune, though it did keep me from thinking too hard about stuff that should become second nature (like maintaining a steady drone) -- and what a bonus, I now also know much more about Chatroulette. com ! (scary-sounding place, that)

[SteveShaw]

"Well at this point I don’t practice much. I play a lot.

Exactly. he has mastered his instrument so he plays tunes. No need for practice. Exactly what I've been saying.

What I would recommend to anybody who wants to learn is scales, scales, scales, scales.

Yeah, but this is for learning your instrument, not tunes, and he expands on this later in the article. I can't think of a single tune you could learn by playing scales. I don't know what you're trying to prove here with this quote, but it seems to me that you've merely proved my point.

[SteveShaw]

So I personally feel that when fingers are pointed at me for 'giving bad advice' that since Kevin Burke agrees with me that it cant be so bad eh?

Fingers are pointed at you because you do give bad advice, and you name-drop to "support" your bad advice all the time. Kevin Burke has never come up to you and said that he "agrees with you," has he? I'll tell you what. Get Kevin Burke, Bobby Casey or Christy Barry to join Chiff and post a testimonial for you. What I post about here is based on my personal experience, which is limited, and I'm always happy to state that. I'm not going to involve people to back me up whom I don't even know. It's a simple matter. We ask for your credentials and you simply can never deliver. Never, not once. Whilst I'm here, I note you've been caught cheating again on TheSession. Says a lot for the reliability of your "advice," doesn't it?

[fiddlerwill]

Actually Kevin has said clearly , and specifically , that he agrees with me. And what on earth is the nonsense about the session? I haven't posted there in a month .You make an inaccurate and false accusation, typical. You seem to take perverse delight in spreading false rumours here Steve. I doubt anyone pays much attention to what you say because your bullying ways are well known.
What I post about here is based on my personal experience, which is based on 35 yrs of playing , 26 playing Irish music, the last 20 of which have been in Ireland. I sent a couple of rough recordings to the mods here just to demonstrate that I am what I say I am. I just reply, not for you steve because I have no interest in discussing anything with such a bore. But for the people who might believe the slander and false accusations you spread round here.

[SteveShaw]

Unbelievable. Literally! You were posting whilst banned as little_chup, an illegal account which has disappeared along with the posts but which dozens of us know about, and your ban has now been extended by two more months.

Edited to add: That's the end of my input on this thread. I've reported the above post to the moderators.

[westwind]

My flute teacher, who as well as holding a bachelorate in music learnt to play his flute and fiddle in the "traditional" way within the Glasgow Irish community and who plays this music professionally, has always told me to use a metronome, to use it sparingly, not become over dependant on it but to use it, especially when practising rolls, crans etc.

At a recent whistle workshop, part of this years Celtic Connections, the workshop leader, a recognised and highly respected Scottish whistle player, told us to learn and practise pentatonic scales repeatedly until they became second nature as this would help us to play the tunes, not to help us master our instruments but to play and understand the tunes.

I consider chiff and fipple to be one of the best resources on the web for the music we play, but, as with any resource, it is up to the invidual to consider of what value any particular piece of offered information or advise has, and to accept or reject it accordingly, we all have different ways of trying get to the same destination, what is right for me will not necessarily be right for some one else but it is what works for me and whilst I will always listen to, and respect, anothers point of view the end decision will be mine.

Paul

[fiddlerwill]

Well said Paul. In my postings online Ive always said dont take my word for it, check it our, research, dig deep, as I have done. I think you will find that my advice is simply standard practice. If there is some aspect of what I recomend that you, as an individual, disagree with, then this is the forum to discuss it. Specific examples please.
Although Ive been at this all my life and its been my profession for the past 2 and a half decades I am happy to consider any suggestions and input. I learn every day and Im hungry for knowledge.
James Kelly also, Im told, recommends the metronome at times, I will be seeing him in a few weeks so I will get back to you with confirmation .
Another thing I read on this board the other day that manuscript notation is 'anathema' in traditional music is ,of course, factually incorrect . Perhaps in the world of internet Trad? I dont know, but folk like Charlie Lennon, Leo Rowesome, Seamus Ennis, Cannon Goodman, Breandaán Breathnac and all could hardly be classed as Heretics now could they? No, they are and were at the very heart of the tradition. If its good enough for them, well Im not going to argue.

According to Patsy Touhey>>three months is not an unreasonable length of time for a beginner to practice reading and playing the scale of D.<<

[highland-piper]

"Well at this point I don’t practice much. I play a lot.

Exactly. he has mastered his instrument so he plays tunes. No need for practice. Exactly what I've been saying.

What I would recommend to anybody who wants to learn is scales, scales, scales, scales.

Yeah, but this is for learning your instrument, not tunes, and he expands on this later in the article. I can't think of a single tune you could learn by playing scales. I don't know what you're trying to prove here with this quote, but it seems to me that you've merely proved my point.

Well now that I know you've actually only been offering advice for people who have reached Kevin Burke's level, I guess I'll quit worrying about it. The advice I've been offering is for people who are at the beginning level -- as you can plainly see, the advice I have offered is very similar in nature to the advice Mr. Burke offers. I had thought that scale playing was more specifically a violin technique, but Paul points out that at least one top-notch whistle player advocates it too.

Regarding books -- In the extended quote above, Mr. Burke mentioned reading. He mentioned it several other times in the workshop. I got the impression it was something he did on a regular basis.

[TaoCat]

*Insert heavy sigh*
Fiddlerwill, you have a slight point. Not all techniques will work as well for all people. Everybody learns differently, and some people will benefit with using a metronome at first. It is something to get an idea of rhythm and then quickly shelved, However...

You are exactly the wrong person to deliver the message. I understand that you believe you are a great pillar of Irish music. You might demonstrate that one day. Normally it should not matter, and your message should be judged on its own merits...but you continually name-drop, brag, strut...what else can I say? You come across like a man trying to pick up gullible women in a bar.

In a way, you were right about the session.org. There was a bit of a clique there. But instead of working to let other voices be heard, you essentially validated all the clique's points. Now you use sock puppets on thesession and poise yourself as an expert here to further discredit your message. You may think you're fighting the good fight, but instead (and I say this as someone who does not wish you ill) are discrediting yourself and your message.

If you value the music, and your message, give it a rest for a while. I mean no offence, despite the harsh tone I am presenting here. Just the truth as I see it.

[david_h]

... and some people will benefit with using a metronome at first. It is something to get an idea of rhythm and then quickly shelved, However...

I will make my own interpretation of the quotes from Kevin Burke and the dicussussion of them here, and maybe review it and how I apply it as my playing and motor skills develop. Thanks to highland piper for providing them (especially for the first-hand information about the context) and fiddlerwill for drawing my attention to the interview.

I can understand how annoying it is when someone giving second-hand advice from a well know figure is criticized for using that persons name in 'validation' of it but if they skip the acknowledgement they are criticised for playing the expert. But if it causes anger all round why not just drop it and move on ?

[SteveShaw]

In a way, you were right about the session.org. There was a bit of a clique there. But instead of working to let other voices be heard, you essentially validated all the clique's points.

Incredibly off-topic, and I promised the mods (my initiative, not theirs) I wouldn't post to a thread involving Will Evans (so two sins in one ), but I think it's slightly unkind to refer to us over there as a clique. United by a common purpose maybe but most of those whom you could list in that clique don't actually even like each other much! There's certainly no collusion or conspiracy going on. 'Taint my style at all. Just thought I'd mention it...

[fiddlerwill]

*Insert heavy sigh*
Fiddlerwill, you have a slight point. Not all techniques will work as well for all people. Everybody learns differently, and some people will benefit with using a metronome at first. It is something to get an idea of rhythm and then quickly shelved, However...

You are exactly the wrong person to deliver the message. I understand that you believe you are a great pillar of Irish music. You might demonstrate that one day. Normally it should not matter, and your message should be judged on its own merits...but you continually name-drop, brag, strut...what else can I say? You come across like a man trying to pick up gullible women in a bar.

In a way, you were right about the session.org. There was a bit of a clique there. But instead of working to let other voices be heard, you essentially validated all the clique's points. Now you use sock puppets on thesession and poise yourself as an expert here to further discredit your message. You may think you're fighting the good fight, but instead (and I say this as someone who does not wish you ill) are discrediting yourself and your message.

If you value the music, and your message, give it a rest for a while. I mean no offence, despite the harsh tone I am presenting here. Just the truth as I see it.

I demonstrate what I do regularly tao cat Anyone can call in for tunes here in East Clare and I will be a Willie Clancy week to.
Your accusations are false.
I make no claims to be an expert here, can you find any? I simply chat with like minded people about our interest in Trad. I note your on post 3 here Taocat? 2 about me and the third about blues harps? who are you? you wouldn't by any chance be doing exactly what you falsely accuse me of now would you...I am not fighting 'the good fight ' That IMO reflects your view not mine.
I find the words and accusations people level often reflect their own behaviour.



Now if you have a problem with an aspect of the way this board is run, please direct it to the moderators and refrain from highjacking a thread about the music . Thank you.


Now Kevin Burke, remember this is a thread directly about Kevin Burkes advice! Said this;


>>Yes, I think the metronome is a very useful, if somewhat punishing, tool. I don't use it all the time but it's never too far away when I'm working at home (I don't take it with me when I travel). I use an old fashioned pyramid shaped one with a bell on it. The bell rings on the 'one' beat and you can set it to 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 or 6/4. You can also turn off the bell so it just clicks. I like having the down beat accentuated (the bell) because the rhythm feels better than just "click-click-click" all the time.<<

Now we have 2 opposing view points that of Taocat who feels that the metronome>>It is something to get an idea of rhythm and then quickly shelved<<...
...and Kevin Burke who still uses one regularly after all these decades.
Like David H, I will make up my own mind based upon the recommendations of experts such as Kevin. We are all free to do the same. As it happens I got into the metronome from learning to play the drumkit and then used it for my other instruments and recomend its use from my own direct experience.

[highland-piper]

I thought that was interesting that he said he uses a metronome regularly.

I know my own rhythm has improved dramatically through the use of the metronome. I also find that sometimes after I learn a tune I will be speeding up or slowing down in certain parts (based on difficulty).

Unless one is the leader of the ensemble though, one will be following an external rhythm source. The same skills one learns to play in time with the metronome work for playing in time with another person.

I also thought some of Mr. Burke's comments regarding session playing (in the linked interview) were really interesting.