Susato wide bore recorder opinions?

[Deasan]

Greetings,
Has anyone tried the wide-bore recorders offered by Susato. I was thinking about trying an alto in f.
http://www.susato.com/konakart/SelectCa ... 0Recorders
Any opinions would be welcome.
cheers, Deasan

[MTGuru]

Yes, I have the C soprano. It's an interesting instrument. Tonally, it's effectively an M-bore Susato C whistle with recorder fingering. Which is fine with me, because I got it for use as a "chromatic whistle". It's a bit airy, and it does have a strong lower register. I wouldn't really call the tone particularly recorder-like compared to, say, a conical Baroque recorder or a wide-bore Renaissance or transitional (Kynsecker etc.) recorder. But I like it for what it is.

An alternative you might look at is the Adri's Dream Flute (Traumflöte) from Mollenhauer. It's another hybrid wide bore + modern fingering, and the tone is definitely big and strong and recorder-y. The plastic and plastic-wood soprano combos are comparably priced to the Susato, and are very nice (real bargains, IMO). The F alto is only available in wood, with the pearwood starting around $300.

http://www.lazarsearlymusic.com/Mollenh ... .htm#Dream

[mutepointe]

You don't think it sounds too much like a whistle?

[MTGuru]

I'm not quite sure how to answer that. If Susato made a wide M-bore C whistle, it might sound similar to this recorder. But of course they don't. It has an airier, more complex tone than I associate with a pre-Baroque recorder. But it doesn't sound much like a typical C whistle to me, either.

Fipple flutes all exist on a tonal continuum anyway. I could record a selection of whistles and recorders, and play them in such a way that I could almost guarantee that you wouldn't be able to identify which is which.

[ubizmo]

I have the all-plastic Mollenhauer "Adri's Dream", and in some ways it would be the ideal recorder, except for the fact that I have a devil of a time getting the notes above higher G. This may be more a reflection of my poor skills than a criticism of the recorder. I lack formal training, but I've played various recorders as a hobby for decades. I love the full-bodied sound of this recorder, but I can't seem to find the right attack to get higher A and up reliably. Any comments on the Susato in this regard?

Ubizmo

[JackCampin]

I have two G altos and two G sopraninos. They are both very useful for Highland pipe tunes (range G up to a, two sharps), or the class of Scottish tunes that extend one note further to b. You don't need to overblow at all for the pipe tunes, and the Susato has a powerful low register. Your fingers are also doing somewhat the same thing as a Highland piper's fingers do on a chanter (e.g. A is T123 456-, D is T123 ----), so the tunes feel right under the fingers.

It doesn't work very well in the high register, but you can push it up to F# for tunes like "Calum's Road". The sopranino is a great instrument for a noisy session, you can be heard over anything.

It's bit disconcerting learning to sightread at G pitch if you've only played C and F recorders before, but it only takes a couple of weeks to adjust. If you play the pipes you won't have an issue.

I can't imagine what I'd want to do with one at any other pitch. (I have lots of recorders already).

It has one HORRIBLE design misfeature. The joint is sealed with two O-rings rather than cork or bare plastic. These rings fit in grooves which create weak points. The O-rings stretch and drop out. Pushing the joints together on mine cracked it neatly around the groove when the loose ring stressed it. I had to fix the joints together permanently with glue. I got another one later - I've taken its O-rings out and got the joint wrapped with PTFE plumber's tape. I presume the other wide-bore Susato instruments have the same issue.

[MTGuru]

Hi Jack, welcome to the Chiffboard.

It has one HORRIBLE design misfeature ... I presume the other wide-bore Susato instruments have the same issue.

I can speak only to the C soprano, the only one I have ... but I haven't experienced your problem with it. There's only one O-ring in the grooved tenon, and after 3 or 4 years it hasn't stretched or loosened at all. I seldom disassemble it at the joint; my cleaning rod covers the length of the assembled bore. Mind, I see nothing wrong with the PTFE alternative if it gives you peace of mind.

I can't imagine what I'd want to do with one at any other pitch. (I have lots of recorders already).

How about for playing the recorder as ... a recorder, and not a GHB substitute?

Seriously, for some Renaissance / folk / dance repertoire, and possibly as a chromatic whistle substitute, a wide bore C or F may be a good tool. Nothing you don't already know, I'm sure.

[ubizmo]

I wanted the Susato as a chromatic whistle substitute, myself. I find it just too harsh in the top half of the 2nd octave, however. I did try the O-ring tweak, which helped a bit, but not enough. I would love to have a recorder that has the breathy sound of some whistles, but that particular sound is just about the opposite of the sound preferred by actual recorder players.

I think I'll end up going the DIY route and trying to make something recorder-like, using Guido Gonzato's general instructions for whistles. For example, the standard fingerings for middle C and D on a soprano recorder are X|OXOOOO and O|OXOOOO. I think it would be great to have those fingerings on a whistle and also have redundancy with the standard vented middle D. This would give flexibility at the octave break, and the possibility to slide up to middle D. I don't know if it would force the use of recorder fingerings for high B and C, though.

But an 8-hole whistle, tuned in D, with a sub-tonic C hole, and left-hand recorder fingerings, would be an interesting hybrid.

Ubizmo

[Kypfer]

Sorry to come onto this thread a litle late, but seeing some of you guys have Susato recorders, I'm hoping you might help. I find the concept of an "extended whistle" quite appealing, but have been unable to confirm, with any degree of certainty, exactly what comprises a "wide-bore recorder". Perhaps some of you could measure the bore of your instrument and post it here? I'd be interested primarily in soprano/descant and/or treble/alto (ie C or F) instruments.

My playing capabilities at the moment don't justify the purchase of a "quality" instrument, without being able to try something similar, but if I could knock something up from a piece of plastic pipe and get an idea of what it might be like to play, it may convince me to invest in something better

[MTGuru]

Perhaps some of you could measure the bore of your instrument and post it here?

Sure, here are the bore measurements in mm of 3 sopranos I have: Yamaha Rottenburgh (plastic), Adri's Dream Flute (plastic), Susato Wide-bore.

Bell End:
Rottenburgh: 7.75 Dream: 14.35 Susato: 14.25
Joint End:
Rottenburgh: 12.70 Dream: 15.00 Susato: 14.70
Taper:
Rottenburgh: 1.64 Dream: 1.05 Susato: 1.03

You can see that the bore at the bell of the wide bores is nearly 2x that of the baroque. And that the wide bores are nearly cylindrical.

As far as experimenting goes ... At $27 (from Lazar's) the plastic Dream Flute is one of the truly great wind instrument bargains. The Susato at $49 less so, but still not expensive.

[Kypfer]

MTGuru,
Many thanks for the details. Your Rottenburgh seems to compare fairly similarly to the "normal" soprano recorders I have access to, no surprise there, but I hadn't really considered (or been aware of?) the plastic "Dream" .. even at the UK price of £23.50 (about $36US) it seems quite a deal ... I'll consider it once the current round of expenditure is dealt with