Flat C#s

[libraryman]

Sorry if this has been addressed before, but I have a question about tuning. I have two pretty high end flutes by different makers and both tune extremely well--except for the C#s which are noticeable and measurably flat on both flutes. On one the C natural is perfect, on the other not so great either. I guess if you had to pick one note to be off, C# would be it since its the only note you normally play in just one register and not used much when playing in G, Em or Am. Still it would be nice to not have fiddlers tell me "your C# is flat.#" I guess my question is, do experienced players practice adjusting their embouchure to get that note up higher which I can do with effort or is this a live with it thing? I believe that on older flutes, A's were often sharp. That's not my problem. BTW, I don't want to mention the maker's names, because I'm just a reasonable player and don't think its fair to say negative things about top makers unless you really know what you are talking about. But I will say neither of these two flutes is a Murray as I know that subject has come up quite a bit before.

[Denny]

one of the problems with a keyless flute is the C# being flat
some makers compromise differently (C# is closer and the C natural fingering is odd)

If you had a C natural thumb hole you could open it to bring C# up
(this is what you do on flute with a C natural key)

you didn't mention what fingering you are using for C natural
If OXX OOO is to flat try OXO XXX
if that doesn't work try all of the combinations that start with OX- ---

[ChrisCracknell]

I have to confirm that the CNatural thumbhole works well at raising the C#. Sometimes I need to keep it flatter to fit in with another flute, sometimes I need to raise it to fit in with fiddles or other instruments. Sometimes I just lip it with the thumb hole shut - there are a few fingering transitions which can result in me effectively letting go of the flute if I try to open the thumb hole too... The CNatural key does the same thing if you have it and if you have time/skill to press it when needed.

[Gabriel]

OOX XOX normally stabilizes C#, allowing the player to lean more into it and thus rise the pitch. It also sometimes rises the pitch of C# without blowing harder at all. It is worth a try.

[jim stone]

I do the thumbhole or use a C natural key to raise C sharp.

Both the key and the thumbhole get you an in tune C natural.

[Akiba]

Flat C# is just the character of the Irish flute. Two of my favorite players, Matt Molloy and John Wynne, can be heard playing flat C#'s on a number of recordings. I lip it up if I can; if not, I don't worry about it. At a gig with a violinist, I told her that my C# is flat due to the design of the flute. We both compensated and it was not a problem.

Jason

[hans]

How flat is flat?
And what do you expect the flute to be in tune with?
A just intoned C# in D major is 12 cents flat of equal tempered tuning, and sounds just fine. Same with F#: it should be flat.
Unless you want to play in F# major or so

[celticmodes]

Fast passages I don't worry about it. Slow passages I lip up or use the C key. Even the Bb key helps depending on what I'm doing next.

[sbfluter]

It seems sometimes to my less-than-stellar ear that often a note that is neither a C natural nor a C# is played. On purpose. I don't worry about such things. If my tuning bothers anyone, I go sit next to people wearing hearing aids.

[MarkP]

I agree that there are some more important things than fine tuning, and that there's something of the 'character' of much Irish flute playing in some version of Just D tuning etc, but... it's good to know the character of your own playing, to be knowledgeable about your flute's tuning, and to feel confident about your ability to correct where required (e.g. in slow playing or in some keys more than others).

Hans mentioned the lower pitched C# and F# (in Just D tuning) but, by the same token, that would suggest a higher pitched F (+16?) and lower pitched B (-16?) than you'd expect from the same 'characteristic' Irish flute. The B in particular is more likely to be sharp than flat without some modification.

It's a very similar question to the one I was asking on a parallel thread, so both discussions are useful:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73874

[johnkerr]

It seems sometimes to my less-than-stellar ear that often a note that is neither a C natural nor a C# is played. On purpose.

That's called a C supernatural, and is a common thing in Irish music. Listen to recordings of the old guys (Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, etc) and you'll hear it a lot. It's part of what makes Irish music what it is.

[crookedtune]

I think I've heard the term "neutral" used in non-ITM in the same way. It's when a tone is played, but there's ambiguity about the actual note being sounded.

The most powerful single note of music I can think of was sung by a young John Miller when he recorded "Mistake in Life" for Blue Goose records in the early 70's. Bone-chilling, nearly forty years after I first heard it!

[Terry McGee]

Breandan Breaethnach talks about this stuff in his intro to Ceol Rince (his own translation available at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/CeolRince1.htm)

"In the music as played use is made only of two accidentals, usually F natural and C sharp. The manner of using them is not by any means similar: F natural is always played under accent; C sharp is never accented. This is not to say of course that C is sharp when not accented. C natural is often to be heard without the accent, but there are special combinations in which this note is always sharp, e.g.:
- in the ornamental triplet B-C#-D;
- between two D's accented, or
- in this cadence of reels: A-F#-D-E-C#.

The above about C# doesn't always apply to the C in the tunes of the second series; their C is always sharp.

The two notes C and F are also exceptional in another way: they are somewhat sharper than the corresponding notes on the piano. It's said that directly halfway between B and D on that instrument lies the C natural of traditional music, i.e., pipers and fiddlers would play C a quarter note higher than on the piano. This may be the reason why C# is so often played for C-natural by the box-player. In a slide up from E to F# the traditional fiddler makes F-natural, so that this is not a fixed note. For this reason I didn't use the ordinary sign to indicate it but used instead an asterisk. Generally, it's better to play F# on the piano or box."

But as simple system flute players, we are more constrained by physical problems - our top hole is a compromise between c, c# and middle d. C# will always tend flat, and cross-fingered C natural usually tends sharp. You can correct one, but usually at the expense of the other, and at the risk that middle d will have a ghost B.

Terry

[celticmodes]

OOX XOX normally stabilizes C#, allowing the player to lean more into it and thus rise the pitch. It also sometimes rises the pitch of C# without blowing harder at all. It is worth a try.

I tried this and it works well and is less clunky than hitting the C key on a D C# B movement. Thanks Gabriel.

[talasiga]

How flat is flat?
And what do you expect the flute to be in tune with?
A just intoned C# in D major is 12 cents flat of equal tempered tuning, and sounds just fine. Same with F#: it should be flat.
Unless you want to play in F# major or so

Yes, the test for a good flute with a perceived "problematic" C# is not to measure it against the cacophony of other instruments (or ET tuners) but to test it with the Muse. This may irritate some of the more technically minded posters here but I stand by it and other technically minded posters may be able to back me up.

TEST 1.
select a D Ionian or E Dorian or A Mixolydian piece (full scale rather than gapped!)
Preferably a slow air or slow song or a dance tune (song) slowed down. Play it evocatively with your flute WITH a backing of a tonic drone, namely D, E or A respectively.
Now do the same thing with the C# "corrected".
record them both.
There are two issues here. How you felt as you played it and how feel as you hear it.
Now you decide the case.

TEST 2.
find a good slow air singer singing a piece with C# in it.
Accompany her (yes, gender bias here) with "uncorrected C#" and "corrected C".
Absolutely no other accompaniment other than flute thank you.
Record both.
Four issues here.
Now both of you decide.