Bouzouki or Octave Mandolin?

[crickett]

Greetings. I am new to this section of C&F, and new to stringed instruments in general. I would like to start learning a stringed instrument for accompaniment in ITM and I like the sound of these instruments. But I am unclear which I should choose to learn. (I am considering a Trinity College instrument.) Is there one instrument that is more common in ITM/celtic music, or that "works" better? Is one a lot harder to learn than the other? Is one better for accompaniment?

I had the thought that with an octave mandolin I could take regular mandolin lessons (which seem more readily available). But then I realized there may be tuning differences. Really, I don't know what to think.

Any thoughts about how I might make this decision would be greatly appreciated.

[Nanohedron]

Typically - typically - an octave mando is tuned in fifths (GDAE), whereas a 'zouk is typically - typically - tuned in an inversion scale (so I think it's called; anyway GDAD), or open (ADAD).

This not to say you couldn't tune an octave mando to GDAD, and I recall at least one 'zouk tuned to GDAE specifically for better ease at melody playing.

For my money GDAD sounds better for backup, but this is just my personal taste, mind you. Never tried ADAD for myself. GDAE can work, of course, but it's the least favorite to my ear. Hard to say exactly why.

As to whether to choose 'zouk or octave mando based on what's customary, it might depend on your locale. In my locale the most prevalent backup instrument is guitar, so my cittern's something of a novelty, you could say. Never cared for customary on its own terms, myself.

At sessions here the odd 'zouk shows up from time to time, mainly from out of town. One of our better guitarists pulls out a genuine Greek bouzouki now and again; great sound. Haven't seen an octave mandolin sit in yet, so I don't have an opinion. You could always pick your weapon based on its ability, and yours, to contribute a special sound to the mix, so you might want to try it all out first, both instruments and tunings.

[crickett]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Nano. That's helpful. T

[Tim2723]

Hi Crickett,

In addition to what Nano has mentioned, I'd add that the first thing you should consider is to research the various members of the mandolin family. Their names, tunings, and uses can get quite confusing. Depending on where a player is from, the mandola might be called an octave mandolin or vise-versa, for instance. The instruments all have a lot in common though, and despite their various tunings use generally the same techniques. How an individual instrument might be tuned by a certain player is less significant than the techniques themselves, as any stringed instrument can be tuned in a number of ways and often is.

In my part of the world, the big difference between an octave mandolin and a bouzouki is that the OM is tuned in unison (both strings of the pair playing exactly the same note like a mandolin, but an octave lower), while the two bass courses of the bouzouki are tuned in octaves (one low string paired with one playing an octave higher, like a 12 string guitar). You can tune either one in a number of ways, but that octave/unison relationship remains the same. So for most players, the big descision is between the sparkly, octave-tuned sound of the bouzouki or the more solid, strong sound of the OM.

As to which one to choose, I think it's a combination of several factors. Which sound do you prefer? What are others in your area using? What would your session-mates take to better? Of course, it's ultimately your instrument, so your opinion is most important, but it can be disappointing to learn an instrument that others resist.

As for choosing according to the tuning, a good teacher will be familiar with the different tunings and guide you accordingly. Don't let all those tunings discourage you. Remember that guitars and banjos use different tunings all the time, and that the re-tuning is part of the experience. It's something you'll learn as you go.

The Trinity College instruments are very popular and are a great choice for an entry-level instrument. Be sure to have it set up properly for best results. A good set up is key to all the mandolins.

[Nanohedron]

In my part of the world, the big difference between an octave mandolin and a bouzouki is that the OM is tuned in unison (both strings of the pair playing exactly the same note like a mandolin, but an octave lower), while the two bass courses of the bouzouki are tuned in octaves (one low string paired with one playing an octave higher, like a 12 string guitar). You can tune either one in a number of ways, but that octave/unison relationship remains the same. So for most players, the big descision is between the sparkly, octave-tuned sound of the bouzouki or the more solid, strong sound of the OM.

Yeah, then there's the option of octave tuning, too. A common way of doing that is with the trebel string on the upper side of the octave-tuned course (somewhere I found the word "re-entrant" applied to this setup, but usually it seems to refer to an aspect of overall tuning, looks like; someone wiser might expand on this), but this of course is in the end just one way of doing it. Personal preferences do count for something. But, the re-entrant arragement makes sense in that the thicker profile of the lower-octave string isn't occluding the thinner upper-octave string on the downstroke.

Tim2723, the 'zouks I've come across have been in unison courses, so as you indicated, this sort of thing can have a lot to do with local convention or, again, personal preference. The only other cittern player that I know of in my locale - an Old-Time player for all practical purposes - uses octave courses, and tunes CGDAE. Conversely, I use unison courses on my cittern and tune DGDAD. So in the end, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Crickett may have gotten more than what he bargained for.

But rather than being hopelessly confused, crickett, the good thing you can take away from all these little bits of information is that so long as you operate within the range of possibilities dictated by the natural limits imposed by the instrument's construction, basically, the world's your oyster.

Beyond that, I say make your choice on the basis of the sound that you like best. My money says that odds are you're not very likely to go wrong, that way.

[MusicalADD]

I play a David Webber bouzouki, which I like pretty well. But, if I had it all to do over again, and if I had a big assortment of instruments to choose from, I'd have chosen an octave mando I think.

The zook's neck is just a little too long for my tastes (and I'm 6 feet tall fwiw). On some tunes I like to do some melody playing, and it isn't particularly easy given the length of the neck.

So, if you plan to do any melody playing, that might push you toward the octave mando.

As for the issue of tuning in unison or in octaves, I don't like how my Webber zook sounds when the low strings are tuned in octaves. That could represent a mistake on my part -- maybe I didn't choose an ideal gauge of string? But, I suspect that it isn't just my preference, because when I got the zook (new) it came strung in unison. I think this zook just doesn't sound as good tuned in octaves. A friend plays a Fylde zook, and I think it sounds great tuned in octaves.

I wonder sometimes whether there's a rule of thumb here... maybe tuning in octaves sounds better on arch-top instruments? (The Weber is a flat top.)

I too think that GDAD sounds much better for backup for ITM. Given the common keys, having the top string be a D means you can let it ring open which is convenient and easy, and it sounds good.

My main instrument, before zook, was mandolin, so I was of course very familiar with GDAE. But as soon as I took up zook I found GDAD was better (for ITM backup).

I think the only reason to consider GDAE, for either zook or octave mando, is if you're going to do a lot of melody playing, and so you want to make the higher notes an easier reach.

I have an octave mando on order, custom built. When I get it I plan to tune it GDAD, since I do much more rhythm playing than melody playing.

Even if you tune an octave mando to GDAE, still, I don't know how much benefit you'll get from mandolin lessons. Octave mando is a LOT bigger. A chord that feels comfortable on a mando will be quite a stretch on an octave mando.