Starting on harmonica

[apache]

Hi.

I have been listening to "celtic" trad for a couple of years, but have never played any tunes within that music.
I recently listened to Andy Irvine & Paul Brady, and recognized a harmonica being used in the tune Mary and the Soldier. I have also heard harmonica being used in some Patrick Street tunes, and I liked that sound.

So now I'm thinking of both starting to learn some irish traditional music, and also the harmonica at the same time.
I'll be brief. All I want is a couple of your answers to these questions:
diatonic or chromatic? "Paddy Richter" recommended? Any recommended online stores and harmonica models? Listening advice (for more tunes that have good harmonica playing)? And finally, do you know any good tutorial DVDs or books?

I'm thankful in advance

[Whistling Archer]

Get a Lee Oskar diatonic , in A to start. I know a bunch of Irish songs are played in G and D , but to get started get a A. Not too high , not too low. Lees seem to me to be the best for the money. If you want to spend a bit more buy Seydel.
Dont buy a Big river , new marine mand ,etc. mostly junk IMHO

wait a while brfore you get a Paddy, you will only confuse yourself.
Steve

[apache]

Nice. I'll look into those brands.
Of course I'm still interested in book or dvd recommendations, and also irish music recordings with good harmonica playing.

Brendan Power is good. I think I will order from him when and if I in the future get a Paddy Richter.

[Whistling Archer]

Sorry, I have no idea. I learned some tunes on harp by just listening to the mando , or whistle playing them. I did buy the 101 Irish fiddle tunes, but didnt work on it, seems to be a good book though. Ive got a few Irish & old time tunes up on youtube , but its just me playing. You can get a Lee Oskar at Guitar Center for about 30.00 bucks. They are not JI tuned, but to start out with , its no worry. The best harp I have ever played is a Seydel 1847 , I have 1 in A , super harp, but they are about 100 bucks

[apache]

30 bucks is a good price, I think I will get one.

[SteveShaw]

Apache, when you hear recordings you do not necessarily hear the tunes played in the keys that you hear them in sessions. On the Irvine/Brady CD (if my memory serves me well) the tune at the end of "Mary" (it's the Blarney Pilgrim) is not in the regular key for that tune as played in sessions (G major). This is because they need to play it in a key that suited their vocal range in the preceding song. Likewise the very last tune on the CD, that gorgeous hornpipe "Little Stack of Wheat." Normally in G, on the CD it's in F.

Many of the tunes on the Patrick Street CDs are in the "proper" keys, though not all. On some other recordings (De Dannan and Four Men and a Dog spring to mind, as well as that excellent Frankie Gavin/Paul Brock CD, Tribute to Joe Cooley) the tunes are played a semitone higher than usual. Some bands occasionally "take liberties" on their CDs with keys to get the effect they want (Planxty often did this for example). If you do your research you will find that the vast majority of tunes, as played in sessions, are in D or G or modes based around D and G (the sorts of things that guitar players like to call A minor, E minor and B minor for example). A minority are in A major but an awful lot of "A-sounding" tunes are actually in A Mixolydian mode, which uses only the notes of the D major scale. Think about The Red-haired Boy for example.

What all this amounts to is that, if you want to play along with other players of Irish music, you need harps in D and G to start with. I recommend that you get a low D harp as opposed to the standard tuning, which is rather high in pitch and which will make you stick out like a sore thumb. The best low D harp in my opinion is the Hohner Special 20 low D. A standard G will do fine. Harps in A and C will come in useful occasionally, but get your D and Gs sorted out first.

Contrary to the advice above, a Paddy Richter-tuned harp will not confuse you at all. This tuning is only one note different to the standard blues harp tuning. The 3-blow reed is raised in pitch by a whole tone to put back an important note (the sixth of the scale) in the bottom octave. In D tunes the lack of this note on the harp will seldom be a problem (though never say never), but in G tunes it is a big issue. With the standard tuning you will not be able to get a vital note at all in an awful lot of tunes. With just one reed altered in the Paddy Richter tuning, this problem is solved in one fell swoop. I strongly recommend Paddy Richter for G and A harps. It isn't too difficult to retune reeds yourself, but if you can't do it or get someone else to do it you may be able to buy harps in the tuning (I think Seydel do them).

Brendan Power is a good source of tuition books for Irish and you can also get Paddified harps from him (at a price).

I recommend Coast2Coast for harmonicas in the US or Eagle Music in the UK. They have much better ranges than the average guitar shop down the road. Lee Oskars are good harps though often somewhat unloved by players of Irish. Suzuki Bluesmasters are very good and comfortable in the mouth. Oskars and Suzukis last very well. My own favourites are Special 20s. I love 'em, though they do not have the longevity of the aforementioned. Of the ones I've mentioned, only the Special 20s come in low D. Marine Bands also come in low D, though I find these to be slightly uncomfortable in the mouth and altogether a bit temperamental. Great if you know how to fix harps!

My credentials for writing this is that I have been playing diatonic harps and very little else in sessions for almost 20 years and have recorded a CD of my playing. It's important to listen to those who have done the collar-work, at least...

[apache]

I think Eagle music will be best to order from, since I live in UK.
I think I'm going to start with trying a low D Special 20.
They're so cheap, that I don't think longevity is important (I presume they last at least a couple of months).

[Whistling Archer]

Apache, when you hear recordings you do not necessarily hear the tunes played in the keys that you hear them in sessions. On the Irvine/Brady CD (if my memory serves me well) the tune at the end of "Mary" (it's the Blarney Pilgrim) is not in the regular key for that tune as played in sessions (G major). This is because they need to play it in a key that suited their vocal range in the preceding song. Likewise the very last tune on the CD, that gorgeous hornpipe "Little Stack of Wheat." Normally in G, on the CD it's in F.

Many of the tunes on the Patrick Street CDs are in the "proper" keys, though not all. On some other recordings (De Dannan and Four Men and a Dog spring to mind, as well as that excellent Frankie Gavin/Paul Brock CD, Tribute to Joe Cooley) the tunes are played a semitone higher than usual. Some bands occasionally "take liberties" on their CDs with keys to get the effect they want (Planxty often did this for example). If you do your research you will find that the vast majority of tunes, as played in sessions, are in D or G or modes based around D and G (the sorts of things that guitar players like to call A minor, E minor and B minor for example). A minority are in A major but an awful lot of "A-sounding" tunes are actually in A Mixolydian mode, which uses only the notes of the D major scale. Think about The Red-haired Boy for example.

What all this amounts to is that, if you want to play along with other players of Irish music, you need harps in D and G to start with. I recommend that you get a low D harp as opposed to the standard tuning, which is rather high in pitch and which will make you stick out like a sore thumb. The best low D harp in my opinion is the Hohner Special 20 low D. A standard G will do fine. Harps in A and C will come in useful occasionally, but get your D and Gs sorted out first.

Contrary to the advice above, a Paddy Richter-tuned harp will not confuse you at all. This tuning is only one note different to the standard blues harp tuning. The 3-blow reed is raised in pitch by a whole tone to put back an important note (the sixth of the scale) in the bottom octave. In D tunes the lack of this note on the harp will seldom be a problem (though never say never), but in G tunes it is a big issue. With the standard tuning you will not be able to get a vital note at all in an awful lot of tunes. With just one reed altered in the Paddy Richter tuning, this problem is solved in one fell swoop. I strongly recommend Paddy Richter for G and A harps. It isn't too difficult to retune reeds yourself, but if you can't do it or get someone else to do it you may be able to buy harps in the tuning (I think Seydel do them).

Brendan Power is a good source of tuition books for Irish and you can also get Paddified harps from him (at a price).

I recommend Coast2Coast for harmonicas in the US or Eagle Music in the UK. They have much better ranges than the average guitar shop down the road. Lee Oskars are good harps though often somewhat unloved by players of Irish. Suzuki Bluesmasters are very good and comfortable in the mouth. Oskars and Suzukis last very well. My own favourites are Special 20s. I love 'em, though they do not have the longevity of the aforementioned. Of the ones I've mentioned, only the Special 20s come in low D. Marine Bands also come in low D, though I find these to be slightly uncomfortable in the mouth and altogether a bit temperamental. Great if you know how to fix harps!

My credentials for writing this is that I have been playing diatonic harps and very little else in sessions for almost 20 years and have recorded a CD of my playing. It's important to listen to those who have done the collar-work, at least...

Apache,
Steve Shaw is known, and Im sure a 10X better player than I. I have never heard him ,,, my advice is for a newbie to harp. And I believe my advice is sound. Im not sure what the "collar work " is . But I am not steering you wrong , I really dont believe. Harp brands are like Martin & Gibson, everybody thinks something else is better. The spec 20 I have had,, have been crap,, they have decent tone, but do not work well. IMHO

[Whistling Archer]

I forgot one example

Learn Kesh Jig on diatonic,, then try to play it on a Paddy , you cant just play it the same. You can play it , but will have to re-learn where to play a couple of notes.
I have a Paddy and its fun,,, I would even say as a beginner , learn either , or ,, but not both at first,,, your call

[SteveShaw]

All new harps are something of a compromise. Everyone plays a bit differently to everyone else. Usually, a harp that does not play well out of the box needs some minor tweaking to play the way that suits your style. This will usually involve regapping some of the reeds. I need all the notes on my harps to respond quickly to hard playing so I nearly always have to open up some of the gaps a little. Lee Oskars are no different to any other brand in this regard. Owning harps is like being a cyclist. You get far more pleasure out of cycling if you know how to fix punctures and blow up tyres. Understanding what you can do to make your harp play better for your personal style is very rewarding. These days I can gap, Paddify and fine-tune a new Special 20 in about half an hour. I have very rarely come across a genuine duffer, and if I did I'd send it straight back to Hohner!

[SteveShaw]

And, for my sins, I play the Kesh on my Paddy Gs all the time. No worries!

[Azalin]

Contrary to the advice above, a Paddy Richter-tuned harp will not confuse you at all. This tuning is only one note different to the standard blues harp tuning. The 3-blow reed is raised in pitch by a whole tone to put back an important note (the sixth of the scale) in the bottom octave. In D tunes the lack of this note on the harp will seldom be a problem (though never say never), but in G tunes it is a big issue. With the standard tuning you will not be able to get a vital note at all in an awful lot of tunes. With just one reed altered in the Paddy Richter tuning, this problem is solved in one fell swoop. I strongly recommend Paddy Richter for G and A harps. It isn't too difficult to retune reeds yourself, but if you can't do it or get someone else to do it you may be able to buy harps in the tuning (I think Seydel do them).

Thanks Steve. I was thinking of getting a harmonica for my trip to Vietnam in december. I won't be taking my concertina over there, too risky, so I thought a harmonica would be the next best thing!

Anyway, I am very illiterate regarding music theory and harmonica technical language. So first of all, what is a "3-blow" reed. Second of all, when you say the sixth of the scale, what exact note is it in D and in G? I assume it's not simply the "sixth note" because in both cases it would be a huge problem!

I read a lot on the internet (about harmonicas for irish music) and it's really, really confusing. All docs assume you have basic understanding of harmonicas, but there's no real clear websites for harmonica dummies like me. I rwish there were some "irish harmonica for *dummies*" page, where they actually explain clearly what is the difference between chromatic and diatonic harmonicas without too much technical language.

The other question I have for you Steve, which might be hard to answer, is that I play the C/G concertina, so a row in C and a row in G, what harmonica would be best suited for me? My concertina has an accidental row, so I can play "any key", but I guess there is no equivalent with harmonicas? Also, my goal is not to play in sessions, so I don't mind if I end up playing in different keys. Actually, I'd rather have lower key.

[SteveShaw]

Anyway, I am very illiterate regarding music theory and harmonica technical language. So first of all, what is a "3-blow" reed.

A note you have to blow to make a sound is a blow-reed. A note you have to suck is called (politely ) a draw reed. Harmonicas have hole numbers stamped on the upper cover (I've never understood why, as you can't see the number when the thing's in your gob). Holes are numbered from left (low) to right (high) - this is the usual way of holding the harp, though there are no rules. So 3-blow means the note you get when you blow into the third hole from the left. 3-draw would be the note you'd get by sucking that hole.

Second of all, when you say the sixth of the scale, what exact note is it in D and in G? I assume it's not simply the "sixth note" because in both cases it would be a huge problem!

This refers to the sixth note of the diatonic do-re-mi scale ("lah" in other words). In the key of G that would be the note E and in the key of D it would be the note B. Because of the way blues harps are tuned, those notes are missing in the lowest of the three octaves of the harp. Also because of the way blues harps are tuned, the fifth note of the scale is duplicated. In other words, on a G harp for example the note D occurs on both 2-draw and 3-blow. Blues men need this duplication for their chords and bending, but we players of Irish have other priorities. What the Paddy Richter tuning does is to retune one of these duplicated notes (usually the 3-blow) up by a tone to put that missing note back. Think it through. You don't lose the note you've tuned up because it was duplicated anyway on 2-draw, but you've gained that missing "lah." Neat and simple, and not at all confusing when the gob-iron's in the gob!

I read a lot on the internet (about harmonicas for irish music) and it's really, really confusing. All docs assume you have basic understanding of harmonicas, but there's no real clear websites for harmonica dummies like me. I rwish there were some "irish harmonica for *dummies*" page, where they actually explain clearly what is the difference between chromatic and diatonic harmonicas without too much technical language.

A diatonic harmonica only has the notes of the do-re-mi scale - no accidentals. Many harmonica players are adept at getting accidentals on diatonic harps by bending or overblowing, but these techniques of getting extra notes are tricky in Irish music (not impossible, but I won't go into all the reasoning here). The Paddy Richter tuning (especially for G harps), and the correct selection of the best key harp for the job, means that you can play the vast majority of Irish tunes on diatonic harps. They're modal, innit, just like the harps... Chromatic harps are the ones with buttons on the end. When you push in the button you get a note a semitone up from the one with the button out. Some players of Irish reverse the slide so that the note goes down instead of up. This can help with ornamentation. Chromatic harps have a different reed setup to diatonic harps, so they usually have wind-saving valves over the reed slots to make it easier to play without using excessive force. There are three main issues with chroms. First, the blow-draw arrangement is not the same as in diatonics, so switching between the two can be awkward unless you've worked hard to get yourself two sets of muscle memory. Second, the valves can be a real bugger. They can seize up, pop, buzz, fall off and generally be a pain in the 'arris. The answer is to keep the harp at body temp when you're keeping it on standby for playing. I put mine in a little pouch with one of those gel handwarmers. Ideal. Third, the slide. It can leak air and it can seize up. Leaking? Stop buying cheap harps! Seizing? Hold harp mouthpiece-down in a shallow plate of hot water and work the slide rapidly back and forth. Shake out and allow to drain the same way up - you don't want too much water getting to those pesky valves. Oh what fun. You could stick to diatonics...

The other question I have for you Steve, which might be hard to answer, is that I play the C/G concertina, so a row in C and a row in G, what harmonica would be best suited for me? My concertina has an accidental row, so I can play "any key", but I guess there is no equivalent with harmonicas? Also, my goal is not to play in sessions, so I don't mind if I end up playing in different keys. Actually, I'd rather have lower key.

Tricky question for a non-concertina player. I bought a D/G melodeon, thinking that the blow-draw pattern would be similar to a harmonica. And so it is. Thing is, I can't play the bloody thing without breathing out on what would be the harmonica blow notes and breathing in on the harmonica draw notes... I think maybe you shouldn't worry about this. Just buy some harps and have fun. D and G if you think you may use 'em in sessions, any middling key if not. G and A are good middling keys. If you really want to get very dedicated and play one harp in lotsa keys, buy a chromatic in C. I wouldn't do that myself. Most players of Irish who use chroms would buy them in D and G, or in C# and F# if they wanted to reverse the slides. It makes the ornamentation far easier.

There's a fairly new book out by Winslow Yerxa called "Harmonica For Dummies." I haven't seen it but it's well-regarded, apparently. Winslow is a great player of Irish and Scottish, so his book could be a good investment.

[Azalin]

Second of all, when you say the sixth of the scale, what exact note is it in D and in G? I assume it's not simply the "sixth note" because in both cases it would be a huge problem!

This refers to the sixth note of the diatonic do-re-mi scale ("lah" in other words). In the key of G that would be the note E and in the key of D it would be the note B. Because of the way blues harps are tuned, those notes are missing in the lowest of the three octaves of the harp. Also because of the way blues harps are tuned, the fifth note of the scale is duplicated. In other words, on a G harp for example the note D occurs on both 2-draw and 3-blow. Blues men need this duplication for their chords and bending, but we players of Irish have other priorities. What the Paddy Richter tuning does is to retune one of these duplicated notes (usually the 3-blow) up by a tone to put that missing note back. Think it through. You don't lose the note you've tuned up because it was duplicated anyway on 2-draw, but you've gained that missing "lah." Neat and simple, and not at all confusing when the gob-iron's in the gob!

Thanks for this post Steve, I owe you a few Dooms Bar!

When you say "low E" is missing in the key of D, and "low B" is missing in the key of G on a diatonic, do you mean the first octave E and B, or the lower one? Because then I'd agree I never ever had to play a low "E", but "low B" comes often. If you are talking about first octave "E" and "B", then it's really impossible to play without them.

Also, on the concertina there are many duplicate notes that allow you to play some combinations easier... won't a missing duplicate note be a handicap?

Finally, there a bunch of nices D tunes with both C# and CNat in the tune, I guess you can't really play those with a diatonic?

Since I just want to explore the instrument, and use it mainly for when I'm in a dangerous land, I think a diatonic would be a good choice for me. I might buy a G...

Thanks for the info!

[SteveShaw]

When you say "low E" is missing in the key of D, and "low B" is missing in the key of G on a diatonic, do you mean the first octave E and B, or the lower one? Because then I'd agree I never ever had to play a low "E", but "low B" comes often. If you are talking about first octave "E" and "B", then it's really impossible to play without them.

On a diatonic 10-hole harp the middle octave (starting on 4-blow) is complete. The upper octave (starting on 7-blow) is complete except for the seventh note ("te") of the scale. Not a problem. The lowest octave, in the bottom three holes, has the fourth note missing ("fa" - rarely an issue except in very occasional tunes such as Tommy Bhetty's Waltz) and the sixth note, far more important, which I've addressed. Now if you think about Irish tunes in general, most fit well on limited-range instruments such as D whistles and D wooden flutes. On these instruments you can play nearly all the tunes because they don't go below the tonic D. This means that on D harps you seldom have problems with the missing notes in the bottom octave because the tunes don't go down that far. On G tunes, on the other hand, you often want to go down to the D below the tonic G. On the harmonica that would be 3-blow. That on its own is no problem, but if you also need to play the E in that octave you'd be stumped - unless your harp was a Paddy, with its 3-blow tuned up to E and the 2-draw left as the D note. Get it?

Also, on the concertina there are many duplicate notes that allow you to play some combinations easier... won't a missing duplicate note be a handicap?

Good question. On a chromatic harp you have a number of duplicated notes (enharmonic notes). A skilled player can use this to their advantage by smoothing out passages which otherwise would have a lot of air direction changes (huffing and puffing, in other words!) On a melodeon you would use the duplicates to select the best note to play for the chord/bass you wanted to play. BUT...I happen to think that the huffing and puffing constant air-direction changes on 10-hole harps, far from being a liability, can be turned into an asset. Smoothing things out all the time can have its merits, but I like that pulsating rhythmic feel you can get with all that blow/draw...

Finally, there a bunch of nices D tunes with both C# and CNat in the tune, I guess you can't really play those with a diatonic?

Tricky. There are a few such tunes (Jenny's Wedding springs to mind), and on a D harp you just can't get that Cnat even with a bend. A chrom would be the answer, or you could get a Hohner XB40 - a diatonic (at a price of course) that is set up to enable every note to be bent. I hate the buggers meself, but your mileage may vary, as they say!