Low D Road Test: Reviol vs Burke

[pancelticpiper]

The Reviol Low C/D/Eb combo I bought from a forum member arrived yesterday and I put the Low D to work right away at a gig last night.

This morning I put in around an hour comparing the Reviol Low D to my aluminum Burke "Pro Viper" Low D.

Appearance:
The two look just about as different as two whistles made of the same material could look, as the Burke is gleaming bright shiny silver and the Reviol has a matte black coating.
The Reviol has very simple lines, being a simple tube its entire length, save for the tuning collar and the flattening of the tube at the fipple. The Burke's headjoint has all sorts of cool angles and has a high-tech, space-age look about it.
The Reviol mouthpiece has a classy logo in white, "Reviol Aotearoa" and a heraldic shield. I don't know how the logo is made, whether it's simply painted on or what. The Reviol body had "Reviol D" stamped on it.
The Burke has no name or logo stamped on it, but rather a lot of stuff written on the back of the head with a hand-held engraving tool "Low D Pro Viper MB 06/2007". It's kind of cool that the whistle is signed and dated by the maker in that way, but it would look more classy to have a nice logo on the front, and it would be easier to find the right key if "D" were stamped on the front somewhere.

Feel:
They're about the same weight, the Reviol feeling a tiny bit heavier. The Burke's smooth surface and rounded-off tonehole edges make it feel great in my hands. The Reviol has a rough surface which took a bit getting used to. The Burke has a delrin beak which feels better in my mouth than the rough coated aluminum of the Reviol.
The upper-hand finger spread of the two is the same, while the Burke's lower-hand spread is a tiny bit wider. (Burke offers an "EZ" version for those who find the lower-hand spread too wide).
The Burke's tube is a tiny bit fatter and I prefer the feel of the Reviol's slightly more slender tube.

Tuning:
Both give nice scales. Both prefer
oxx xox
for C natural.
Both give nice high C naturals using
oxo xxx.
The B's of both are a tiny bit off (the way I blow anyhow): The Reviol's low B is a bit flat but the high B is perfect, while the Burke's low B is good but the high B is a tad sharp.
For me, the Burke's 2nd register has a slight tendency to sharpness overall which is remidied by blowing the low register very strongly. The overall scale across the two octaves seems a bit better on the Reviol, at least the way I blow. (Keep in mind that I've been playing the Burke regularly for a couple years and I just got the Reviol yesteday).

"Action" , volume, and voicing:
The two whistles actually play in a very similar way, more similar that I expected. Both seem to have about the same amount of resistance/back pressure, though a bit less air seems to travel through the Reviol making longer phrases possible. The low E's on both are a tad on the weak side; this is true of nearly all Low D whistles. The Burke's bottom D is much stronger, and indeed is far more powerful than the rest of the low register, which is a very nice thing for Irish music, a strong bottom D being a feature of Irish flute and uilleann pipe playing styles.
The Reviol's bottom D is fairly solid but not booming, and I can't "push" it like I can on the Burke.
The Reviol's overal low register seems actually a tad louder than the Burke's. Also, the Reviols' volume seems to be more even over the entire gamut. The Burke's 2nd register is noticably louder than the 1st, especially high A and B.

Timbre:
The Burke has a more open, flutey tone while the Reviol's tone is a bit more "musty" or dark.

Clogging:
I've played the Burke for literally hours on end without it ever clogging with moisture. The Reviol unfortunately is similar to the Overton in that it clogs with moisture after a minute or two. I'll have to develop the habit of breathing in through the mouthpiece to keep the winday clear.

Tomorrow I should be able to take both whistles to the local session and find out how they compare in such a setting.

[MusicalADD]

That's interesting -- my Reviol low D doesn't seem to clog.

But then, I don't play mine for extended periods since I'm ... not that good at it. I just run out of air on low whistle.

[Makar]

Thanks for the very full and useful review. As noted by MusicalADDs response - mileage will vary on many of the 'test' elements. I think I find the review particularly helpful because I know your position, through other posts, with regard to the Burke Low D and so that makes a useful reference point as I also think it to be my kind of low whistle. That said, the arrival of an MK has changed that perspective a bit. Must work out recording a wee bit of both and posting...

thanks again
Stephen

[pancelticpiper]

Ah yes the MK. I borrowed one which was just fantastic. If I could have bought that one I would have. It was the best Low D I've ever played. It was a bit louder than the Burke, with a very good balance over the gamut. The timbre was dark, musty, and interesting. The thing that really impressed me was how on every note, even low E (the Achilles' Heel of the Low Whistle) there was a lot of "room" to vary your pressure, which allowed for more dynamics, more expressive playing. (But then again I played a different MK which was rather mediocre, so apparently they vary quite a bit.)

I should have mentioned above in the connexion of "room" to vary pressure/dynamics/expressiveness that the Reviol has a rather narrow window of acceptable pressure. I found myself overblowing it to the point of the note breaking fairly often, which tells me that I've got used to varying my blowing more on the Burke. Oddly, it's in the 2nd register that I find myself overblowing notes to the breakpoint on the Reviol.

About the clogging issue, in the GHB (Great Highland Bagpipe) world every players knows to what extent they're a "wet blower" or a "dry blower" and they have to tailor their choices in bag and MCS (moisture control system) to suit. Some people when they exhale/blow put out very humid air, some people rather dry air. I'm an extremely "wet blower" so I clog Overtons in a minute or two, making them pretty useless for me unless I inhale through the mouthpiece (which I'm told many recorder players do).

Yesterday I played the Reviol and Burke side-by-side for several musician friends and their impressions were all over the map as to which was louder and which tone they preferred.

[usfenderfsdlx]

I appreciate this review. It either somewhat helps or violently stirs up my dilemma. I'll explain.

Yes, the Burke sound and the Reviol/MK/Overton sound are both amazing. I'm trying to decide which of these to go with for my next low D and low F, and as I've showed people videos and soundclips of the different whistles in order to get second opinions, just as many people have preferred the fat/flutey/delicate vibe of the Burke (and I would also put the Chieftain V3 and Kerry Songbird in this school) as have preferred the dark/mysterious/complex vibe of the Overton school of whistles.

Pretty much, I'm having a tough time deciding between the Burke and Burke-esque whistles (fat, low backpressure) and the Overton-esque whistles (complex, high backpressure) on the basis of sound alone. It might be impossible on the basis of sound alone, because they are all so good, really.

Ultimately I think it is going to come down to playability. I *mostly* like how my Susato lows play. Here is what I like: the ability to come up on and fall off of a note using breath alone, the ability to do deep and mysterious breath vibrato, the ability to push a note hard in the low end and achieve an edgy tonality or back off and make it sweet without sacrificing too much pitch (nice feature of Susato Kildare Low D), and the backpressure that allows to play some very long phrases. [I am not sure how to class a Susato in terms of backpressure, whether it is high or moderate or somewhere inbetween--anyone?]

In addition to my next whistle sharing those things I like about the Susato, here is where I would like it to better than the Susato: tone, ease/clarity/precision of octave shift, definition and clarity between notes/more responsiveness to tonguing in the low end, responsiveness to embellishments (the susato is pretty strong in this regard, but could be better).

Whats my bogey?

[Makar]

Whats my bogey?

Difficult to say just what your bogey may be. Have you personally tried both Burke and MK low D's? If not have you heard them played one after the other by somebody else? I am still pretty much a beginner after a year in but happy to do a skype with them if you haven't heard them?

cheers
Stephen

[usfenderfsdlx]

I wish I could play both. That would settle it, I know. I've heard quite a few clips of the Burke, but it is impossible to find clips of the MK II. Kerrywhistles.com has a few clips of the MK, but it is the old MK I, which isn't as good as the new MK II. When people talk about having played great MK's--'the best whistle ever'--and mediocre MK's, they've probably run across an old MK and a new MK II. I've repeatedly heard that Misha keeps to really tight quality standards, so a mediocre MK is probably the older model. I'm not sure when Misha started with the MK II, but I know that if you order an MK today, you get an MK II.

That was a bit of a digression.

Stephen, PM me about doing a skype demo of the whistles. I would need to download skype, but that is no problem; I would love to have this demonstration of the two whistles side by side.

[pancelticpiper]

I'm having a tough time deciding between the Burke and Burke-esque whistles (fat, low backpressure) and the Overton-esque whistles (complex, high backpressure) on the basis of sound alone.

A couple thoughts here
1) I don't know if using timbre alone really works... for me, it's more about how the whistle performs. No matter how cool the timbre is, if a whistle is squirrelly/unstable/feeble I'm not interested in playing it. So, there's no substitute for you actually playing the various whistles.
2) Overton-esque whistles do not necessarily have greater backpressure. The Reviol's is about the same as the Burke, and Colin Goldie can make Overtons at any backpressure the client asks for I believe.

Ultimately I think it is going to come down to playability. I *mostly* like how my Susato lows play. Here is what I like: the ability to come up on and fall off of a note using breath alone ....the ability to push a note hard in the low end and achieve an edgy tonality or back off and make it sweet without sacrificing too much pitch...

Yes indeed, that's the "room" I was trying to talk about. Whistles on which the notes have a very narrow window are sort of frustrating to play because you have to blow each note at one precise pressure and you can't do much in the way of dynamics.

I am not sure how to class a Susato in terms of backpressure

I think most people reckon Susatos to be in the "low backpressure" category.

ease/clarity/precision of octave shift

I myself don't like whistles that have a definite "break" between octaves. Rather, I much prefer whistles that behave like flutes in that you can play a note in the low octave, then progressively bring more of the 2nd octave into the tone, until you're playing a pure 2nd octave note. Whistles that can do this have the ability to "play in between the octaves" which is something I highly prize. It's one of the first things I noticed about the Burke Pro Viper when I first got it, which immediately raised it in my esteem above any other Low D I'd tried: it's octave performance is precisely like a flute's.

[usfenderfsdlx]

Thanks Pan, that's helpful. I like the "room" that Susatos have, and I agree that I really like being able to play between the octaves, rather than having the whistle suddenly jump octaves on me. I have to agree that that is a very important thing for me to have in a whistle. So, I'll get more specific with what I was trying to say about my desire for cleaner octave shifts.

I don't like how easy it is to miss the 2nd octave D on my Susato Low D, it feels like it has a really specific pressure that I need to hit the note at. Once I've actually hit the note, however, I can blow it harder or softer. I find that my Susato low E and F don't have this problem. While also having that room to push or back off notes (less so than the low D), the Low E and F (especially the low F) make it easy to hit clear and defined 2nd octave bell notes when performing fast runs. For instance, on the Low D, if I'm doing a fast run from the 1st octave into the 2nd, and I hit the 2nd octave D note even just a tiny bit too hard, it comes out sounding like a badly overblown 1st octave D note. This is really weird, because it means that I need to slightly decrease my blowing pressure from the top of the first octave in order to hit a clean 2nd octave D. The low E and F, however, seem to have a more natural progression of breath pressure requirement as I move up the scale and into the second octave, making them (especially the Low F) very pleasing to play and hear. This can be heard in the attack of the notes. On my Low D, the attack of the 2nd octave D is always bit mushier than I like, the note just isn't as defined as the others; it lacks a certain power or oomph.

All that being said, I'll always hang on to my Susato lows. They have their thing, and some people really like how they sound. Being as I do often play whistle for other people's projects--live and studio--it is good to have a number of different sounds available. I don't play in ITM circles, and because of that I think the Susato is much more well received than it would be otherwise. It doesn't exactly sound traditional, but it does sound good.

But nonetheless I find I am wanting something that is both visually and sonically more shiny than the Susato, and I am finding that I would like the "action" of my Low D to be a bit better and the volume a bit stronger. I have a lot of control over my sound, but not as much as I would like.

My biggest confusion is this: I've heard people class the Susato as low backpressure, high backpressure and everywhere in between. I even seen, on this forum, Susato and Overton put into the same class in regards to backpressure. I forget where I read it, but somewhere on this forum I read someone saying, "...high backpressure, like Overton and Susato..." That's not verbatim, but you get the point. So, not knowing if Susato is high or low backpressure makes it tough for me to know what kind of backpressure I want in my next whistle. Burkes have moderate-ish backpressure, and have a great ability to be pushed between the octaves. I've also heard, in an email from Brigitte herself, that it is the Overton's high backpressure that makes this pushing room possible. I've also played a howard, a pretty high backpressure whistle, I think, and I found that it had a great ability to be pushed as well.

I do want to vary my sound a bit. The susato has a good sound; it is on the fat/flutey end of the whistle tone spectrum. The Overton is on a different part of the whistle tone spectrum from the Susato/Burke, which makes me lean towards it for the sake of having some diversity of tone. While I think I might prefer the tone of an MK--some combination of fat/flutey and cosmic drainpipe--I think I'm going to go with the Overton! Because that way I know exactly what I'm getting, Colin custom makes them, and he can change the sound and playability according to exactly the thing I'm going for. I would say that is the best start. I feel like I can just call him up, tell him exactly what I'm going for--like I've laid it out here--and he'll make me a whistle that will do it all. This way I don't need to guess around on my next whistle. I can just tell someone what I want the whistle to do, and he'll make it happen! It's has taken me like 3 months to come to this decision. You all have just witnessed someone type his way out of New Whistle Acquisition Decision Dilemma (NeW ADD).