New Member - with a question.

[Ciaran_Doire]

Hello All...

Another new member checking in.

Have recently decided to try taking up the whistle but at 27 I hope I haven't left it too late.

Well, there is a slight lie in that previous line, I used to tipp about on the whistle when I was younger, picking up songs and transferring them onto the whistle by ear. The slow songs like Spancil Hill, Danny Boy etc etc where fairly easy to pick up and work through so I soon found my self wanting to move onto the faster stuff e.g. reels/jigs/hornpipes, but with out a tutor I found these where a lot tricker to master and the whole whistle playing experience fell to the way side (much regrettably)

Anyway a trip to the Willie Clancy festival last year revived the interest in ITM and the "need" to be able to one day sit in on a session - which has brought me to this point.

I'm currently trying to learn the Kesh Jig plus Above and Beyond (hornpipe) - I've pretty much got the bones of the tunes, and the rhythm/speed is about 75% correct. The part I was unsure about is Ornamentation. Is there any "rule of thumb" when applying cuts/taps/rolls/slides etc? I guess what I'm trying to ask is how do you know which type of ornamentation to apply to which note and when?

I hope this makes sense.

Kind Rgds
Ciaran

[pipersgrip]

Welcome to the board Ciaran. The great thing about Irish music is that you make it your own version. That is why I hated playing classical; they always told you how and what to play, when to put a breath in. ITM is where you put what type of ornamentation you see fit in the music. It should be your tune and version. Usually though, when there is a single note or a note with a dot by it, I use a roll. I would listen to different versions and see where people put their ornamentation in it. If you like it, try it. Just fiddle around with it, and you will get it in no time.

[CleverCugel]

Listen as much and as often as you can. Slow tunes down (audacity) to hear what they're jamming in as ornaments.

Experiment. I've tried many a times to jam a roll into a portion that didn't feel right...but I didn't know it didn't feel right until I tried it...trial and error.

You'll be surprised at how you'll develop your own style and you'll start putting the ornamentation in without even thinking about it. I liken it to the point when you're learning a language and you start thinking and dreaming in the new language. Once you've got it, it becomes part of you.

That being said, make sure you learn the correct (easiest) way to actually play the ornaments, especially rolls and crans. There are a number of good web resources for this.

[Ciaran_Doire]

Thanks for the input guys...

I think the problem I have at the minute is that I end up tonging all the time to differentiate between notes or where notes need to be broke up, which unfortunately gives a very jerky/jaggy feel to the tune as apposed to the smooth flowing feel that the tune should have. I think this is a habit I've managed to get myself into more than anything, plus when I do try to put some ornamentation into the tune I find myself sub consciously tonging at the same time - again the habit is to blame

I read on a website somewhere (can't recall exactly where) that a good way to try and implement ornamentation is to stop tonging completely and just play the notes all flowing together, this makes the tune sound all wrong, but it forces the player use cuts/taps/rolls to break up the notes.

Any of you experienced guys got tips or what are your opinions on the above?

Thanks
Ciaran

[StevieJ]

I read on a website somewhere (can't recall exactly where) that a good way to try and implement ornamentation is to stop tonging completely and just play the notes all flowing together, this makes the tune sound all wrong, but it forces the player use cuts/taps/rolls to break up the notes.

Well once you get your cuts and taps etc. happening properly it won't make the tune sound all wrong at all. You'll just sound like a good player of the kind that doesn't use tonguing.

You might have read about it on my own site. Naturally, I think it's a useful exercise, especially if you're tonguing uncontrollably

[crookedtune]

I read on a website somewhere (can't recall exactly where) that a good way to try and implement ornamentation is to stop tonging completely and just play the notes all flowing together, this makes the tune sound all wrong, but it forces the player use cuts/taps/rolls to break up the notes.

Any

Yes, that's exactly what I did ----went cold turkey. Later I reintroduced some tonguing, but only in great moderation. It's only hard for the first few days, and well worth the effort IMO.

[Ciaran_Doire]

Thanks StevieJ. I'll have a look through your website, there looks to be a lot in there.

"Tonguing uncontrollably" - thats one way of putting it I guess

So I take it is possible to use to much tonguing and/or should it be used sparingly?

[CleverCugel]

short answer yes with an if, long answer no with a but...

[StevieJ]

LOL CleverCugel - living up to your name?

So I take it is possible to use to much tonguing and/or should it be used sparingly?

How much is too much? Actually that's not really the most important question. The important thing is to make the tunes sound good to a traditional ear, and to do that, the main thing you have to _know_ is what sounds good and steer your own playing in that direction.

There are players who make tunes sound very good without tonguing at all, and there are players who make tunes sound very good with a great deal of tonguing. And there are plenty of others at every point in between.

The difficult thing is to know when tonguing is helping you sound good and for that you just need to listen lots. And then lots. If you're in a hurry, you need to listen very carefully, paying attention to the minutest details. If you're not in a hurry, you can listen a little less minutely, but just as often, and let osmosis work on you.

Since you said earlier that you tongue to differentiate between notes, I think going "cold turkey" on tonguing will help. You'll clean up your fingering very quickly, which will be of great benefit.

One could argue the point, but I'd say it's easier to sound "traditional" with no tonguing than it is with tonguing, unless you put some serious work into where to tongue.

Cheers
Steve

[KNQuail]

Hello Ciaran!

27 too old to take up the whistle? Hope not, otherwise I'm screwed. I got my first whistle last year at age 27. Only been at it a few months, and have just begun tackling the problem of "tonguing uncontrollably." I've been going through Mel Bay's Complete Irish Tin Whistle book, and as I work on each cut, roll, etc I think of where I could fit it in one of the songs/tunes I'm working on. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it leaves something to be desired (my fingers aren't quite quick enough on the rolls yet!) but you never know til you try.

[Mitch]

Everyone should play the whistle!

Later in life is just as good as early - many lifetimes fail to pick one up at all! Sad but true ...

All that has been said about articulation is spot-on. Understanding the tune comes first. discovering its rhythms is next - the rhythm of a good tune is in the melody. For ITM, the ornamentation is the expression of the underlying rhythm of the tune - all these tunes (if properly written) were made to dance to - if your playing makes you, and others, want to dance - you have achieved the objective. Constant tongueing prevents the full expression of the rhythm - it becomes a head thing rather than a feet/legs thing. That all makes the melody become more than just a string of notes.

[benhall.1]

I did kind of what you did, Ciaran. I messed about on whistle, without getting anywhere very much, many many years ago, gave up completely, and then took it up seriously (I hope) just two years ago. I'm now 51, so I wouldn't think 27 is "too old".

I totally second all the good stuff on tonguing etc above. I think if you try and play without any tonguing at all for a while, you'll get your finger articulation much much better and then, once you've done that, it's easier to re-introduce some tonguing. IMHO.

I'd add something else though, that no-one has mentioned, and I think is crucial. I would suggest that you forget about ornamentation altogether. Don't think about it. Just learn lots of tunes and get them so that you can play them at reasonable speed and in time. Go and play them in a friendly session if you can. Once you can play, say, 50 tunes, you'll suddenly find that you don't have to worry about ornamentation ... because it's magically already in there.

[Ciaran_Doire]

To all that have taken the time to reply - many thanks!

I suppose the "27 being too old to pick up the Whistle" part is kinda irrelevant now that I've read the above posts, just though I'd ask though cause I remember reading somewhere "If you decide to take up the whistle later in life - after the age of 12 that is....". But there was obviously quite a bit of sarcasm in that remark.

Anyway - BenHall1. With regards to your comment, I'm at the stage now where I've just learned my first jig - The Kesh, and I have all the fingering correct, and pretty much have (as I like to refer to is as) the bones of the song in place. So I was wondering should I now try to put some ornamentation in there to lift the tune or should I try learning another tune e.g. The Silver Spear and this is where I was a little stuck. Although having read your comments, I think I should probably go ahead and try to get a few more songs under my belt, as well as try not to use tonging as much as I do, and then, hopefully as you mentioned, ornamentation will come easier at a later stage.

Don't get me wrong though - I can do most of the ornamentation, cuts/taps/rolls (apart from on A - my third finger on top hand is a little reluctant to play the game so far ), but I feel that when I try to put it into the Kesh Jig, it's almost as if I'm forcing it in and it's taking away from the rhythm of the tune (hope that makes sense) - but I'll put this down purely to inexperience.

[Carey]

I'd add something else though, that no-one has mentioned, and I think is crucial. I would suggest that you forget about ornamentation altogether. Don't think about it. Just learn lots of tunes and get them so that you can play them at reasonable speed and in time. Go and play them in a friendly session if you can. Once you can play, say, 50 tunes, you'll suddenly find that you don't have to worry about ornamentation ... because it's magically already in there.

I was going to write nearly this same thing, but then I found it written already. It's hard to forget about ornamentation completely because so many people put it in their notation when they transcribe a tune for the web or something. I wish they wouldn't do that. At least not in the tune proper. Comments later on would be fine.

It is sort of frustrating learning to play the whistle. Like most simple things, to make something really nice with them takes a lot of skill. That skill isn't always obvious. Like some simple line drawings that are drawn with a single pencil and very few lines but exactly the right ones. You look at it and go "That's not hard I could do that." But you find it's not so easy to get the same result.

Learn tunes, and learn the bare bones as you say. Keep learning more tunes. Don't stop. Don't let learning ornaments get in the way of learning more tunes. Learn the tunes that are in your head when you are not listening to any. And listen to the music a lot to put them in your head. You have to know what it sounds like in order to imitate it. During your playing sessions do take time out to teach your fingers the cuts taps and rolls. But don't try to cram them into tunes before they are ready or they will just spoil the tune. When they are ready you will find they easily go into the tunes both old and new to you.

As you play more and listen more, your ear will hear more. Your learning and hearing develop together, deeper and deeper into the music. Just last Tuesday I was at a meeting where I ran into a local Bluegrass fiddler. She and my wife were chatting and the fiddler said "I have to admit I can only take about 15 minutes of Irish music. It all sounds the same." This is where many people start and end their exploration of Irish music. I didn't even object to her statement because unless you learn to hear the music it does all sound the same. It's just notes after all <g>. Then jigs and reels become obvious. Then each tune becomes easy to hear. Then you start picking up when your fiddler buddy slips in a new ornament while you are blazing along playing a reel at ceili speed, and you look over to see him grinning because you caught it. It just takes time. Don't rush it, enjoy the trip getting there. You will play the Kesh for the rest of your life, and every time you play it can be different.

Don't compare your playing to the pros you hear or you'll be frustrated (especially don't compare yourself to MTguru!) Record yourself and you'll see your progress. It's a journey we are never finished with. Thank goodness for that!

[StevieJ]

13 replies and nobody has written either "tounging" or "toungeing" yet. This must be a record.