poor quality control in entry-level whistles?

[charlie_butterworth]

Peter's topic on low-end versus high-end whistles is very interesting, and it raised a simple question, which may not have a simple answer. I read somewhere that it make take trying a whole bunch of Generation whistles before finding one that is good. This may not be true, but if it is, then obviously some quality-control issues arise.

So, how is it that manufacturers like Generation are not able to manufacture consistently?

Surely, a modern factory would employ laser drilling of tone holes and modern injection-molding of fipples, so how is it that consistent manufacturing is not possible?

Are the tolerances required for good whistles that fine?

Has anyone ever visited a large-scale whistle manufacture and seen how they make them?

Unfortunately, I haven't found a retailer for Generation whistles in the Phoenix area. I would really like to own a good one as Peter Laban and other expert players who play Generations surely don't tolerate bad whistles! I could do mail order, and the mail order retailer may refund the price of whistles, but the costs for mailing numerous "duds" back to the retailer could prove prohibitive.

Charlie

[ctilbury]

Peter's topic on low-end versus high-end whistles is very interesting, and it raised a simple question, which may not have a simple answer. I read somewhere that it make take trying a whole bunch of Generation whistles before finding one that is good. This may not be true, but if it is, then obviously some quality-control issues arise.

So, how is it that manufacturers like Generation are not able to manufacture consistently?

Surely, a modern factory would employ laser drilling of tone holes and modern injection-molding of fipples, so how is it that consistent manufacturing is not possible?

Are the tolerances required for good whistles that fine?

Has anyone ever visited a large-scale whistle manufacture and seen how they make them?

When they make a plastic mold, they typically mold several pieces at the same time. Every cavity in the mold is more or less hand made. Getting really close tolerances requires a Computer Numerical Control/Electrical Discharge Machine (CNC/EDM) process, which is very expensive. Most plastic molds are made by hand.

Also very small differences in the way that a fipple is configured make a relatively large change in the way the instrument is voiced. These two things combined make it hard (but not impossible) to make whistles with consistent characteristics.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a retailer for Generation whistles in the Phoenix area. I would really like to own a good one as Peter Laban and other expert players who play Generations surely don't tolerate bad whistles! I could do mail order, and the mail order retailer may refund the price of whistles, but the costs for mailing numerous "duds" back to the retailer could prove prohibitive.

Get a tweaked whistle. They cost a little more, but you can reliably get a good one.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

charlie_butterworth said ;

I read somewhere that it make take trying a whole bunch of Generation whistles before finding one that is good. This may not be true, but if it is, then obviously some quality-control issues arise.

I would word it thus:
'It may take trying a whole bunch of Generation whistles before finding a good, in tune, clean sounding one.'
There is no doubt that there are quality control issues with most cheapies, but do we have to accept the sub standard ones? I mean, they have a sticker on them saying 'D' for Gods sake, and it is quite clear by sticking a tuner near them that they are nowhere near 'D'.
I ordered a batch of 6 Gen' high D's for a class I had planned and was absolutely appalled at how bad the whistles were. I got one out of 6 that was nearly in tune with itself and the rest were so off that I was wondering if they had Eb tubes stuck on by mistake! I ended up having to hand out a selection of my own whistles (Clarkes, Sweetones etc) so that the class could go ahead. In this case I ended up with 5 spare mouthpieces if I ever need any. The fella in the shop had the 'Here's 20 cents, go ring someone who gives f%#k' look in his eyes when I told him how bad they were. He said 'They only cost ten dollars each', oh yeah?, so I said 'Well you wont mind giving me 'only ten dollars each' refund on each one then will you?' He looked at me like I was an axe murderer or something. $60 for one sort of playable whistle and 5 spare fipples, what a rip-off!!
I still have the first Gen' high D that I bought, it played great straight off the shelf. Was I lucky? Well, yes, because I have bought several since (for students and as back up to the one I have) and have never found one as good straight off the shelf.
I think with Gen's and most/all of the mass produced cheapies that are on the market you get what you pay for most of the time: a six holed tube made from some sort of metal and a lump of moulded plastic stuck on top that may or may not produce a nice sound.
Most of the time there is no way around these whistles without tweaking them. So, just as ChuckT says Charlie, buy a tweaked one, you'll be much happier.

[s1m0n]

Get a tweaked whistle. They cost a little more, but you can reliably get a good one.

You can 'tweak' your own by buying several and throwing some away*. Or to the back of a deep drawer, or to the progeny of someone you dislike. Plan C is an excellent use for the Generation G whistle we used to have to buy, back when 2 Clarkes and 6 sizes of Gens were all there was to slake our red-hot WhOA on.

*However, it's more cost effective to let Jerry Freeman do it, because he can often (or maybe always) fix the duds.

[Cayden]

I think somewhere someone misread the quest for an exceptional one and so, over time, folklore now has it you need to be going through a box to find one that's playable at all. Which ofcourse is nonsense.

The production process has variables, Dale once mentioned 'quality control' and it has been parroted ever since. In my experience, and I have tried this a number of times during the ongoing discussions, you go to a shop, try a half a dozen or so and pick the one you like best and you come away with a fine whistle for €4.

Most whistlers I know buy their whistles that way and I think you need to do it whatever make you're buying. I have gone through a batch of whistles costing €60 and found more croaky ones than in a batch of Generations in the same shop. I know people who would go through a batch of Cillian O Briains and come up with one they like better than the rest and given half a chance they'd go through a batch of Sindt to pick the nicest one: Brid O Donohue for example maintains my Sindt, which she used to record Tobar an Duchas, is nicer than the one I got her later for example. I don't think it is but that's another story. It goes to show how the mind approaches these things.

I know I won't convince anyone but all I can say I have never found a downright unplayable Generation (type), there's a variance from one to the next but I quite happily play Feadogs, Oaks or Generations without adjustments and without problems or hesitation.

[Adrian]

I think with Gen's and most/all of the mass produced cheapies that are on the market you get what you pay for most of the time: a six holed tube made from some sort of metal and a lump of moulded plastic stuck on top that may or may not produce a nice sound.

Hmmm... I have found 'cheapie' nickel Feadog 'D's and 'C's to be consistently good. I would not buy Generations mail order if I could buy Feadogs instead.

[lazyleft]

I try to never play the whistle any more ( too involved with playing my flute ) but I remember the good/bad old days when I used to trek down to my local music store and annoy the sales guys by trying out a whole handful of whistles. Probably there was some difference between one generaration and another but by the time I had got through all of them I was damned if I could actually recall which one was better than any other one for whatever subjective reason I had come up with.
It's a bloody whistle for God's sake!! A Generation doesn't require a second mortgage. If it's a dud chuck it and get another one. For me that's part of the beauty of the instrument. You don't have to be rich to play it. On the other hand ( where the low end whistles are concerned ) how much can anyone expect in return for a handful of nickels and dimes.
Personally I am a great one for blaming my instrument. I currently have a flute that I am most unhappy with...but I went with cheap and that is what I got. However I once knew a singer who also played a bit on flute and whistle. He is acknowledged through competion as being a someone to look up to. As a whistle/flute player at that time he had less ability and technique even than myself and I was really just a kid. But it didn't matter what instrument he played, he always produced the same rich, complex totally captivating tone that was natural in his voice. I still don't understand how that works but apparently it does. I only wish that I had that 'quality' ...I would probably never have to complain about an instrument ever again.

[Jerry Freeman]

Feadogs are the most consistent of all mass produced whistles I've encountered. They're amazingly consistent. Generations have the greatest variation of all mass produced whistles I've encountered. Other mass produced whistles tend to be pretty consistent, closer to Feadogs than Generations in that regard. Except for Clarke Originals, which are also highly variable, but made from sheet metal, lend themselves to being easily tweaked by most players.

Despite the variability, there's something special in the voicing of a "good" Generation, and dedicated players manage to find enough good ones, as Peter's reporting.

The issues with tuning, in my opinion, are an artifact of the way the whistleheads are attached in the factory. Generations tend to be too sharp out of the box, and they're all different. The whistleheads need to be loosened and properly placed on the tube. Then they should be acceptably in tune.

To illustrate that: I got an email recently from a customer who'd purchased a tweaked Sweetone. He said the whistle was out of tune with itself; he could keep it on pitch through one octave, but then it went out of tune, and no matter how he tried, he couldn't bring it into pitch with breath control.

I suggested he move the whistlehead so the variance in pitch was averaged between the upper and lower registers and then see what he found. He reported that having done that (moved the whistlehead back so as to lengthen the whistle slightly), the whistle was nicely in tune. He found that each pitch was easily within a range that allowed him to comfortably blow every note on pitch.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[MTGuru]

you go to a shop, try a half a dozen or so and pick the one you like best and you come away with a fine whistle for €4.

Most whistlers I know buy their whistles that way

But I read the crux of Charlie's practical dilemma as: what to do if you want an nice, plain untweaked Generation, but you don't live within 300+ miles of a shop that carries any Generations at all, much less a selection to choose the best from? Most whistlers here are probably not as well positioned as most whistlers you know.

I don't know the answer. But I've sometimes thought that if one is willing to spend, say, $120 for a crafted whistle, then why not just mail order a dozen Generations for the same cost and make your own selection. Based on anecdotal evidence (like yours), the odds seem pretty good that you'll get one or two really nice whistles by any standard, and the rest can go to neighbors, friends, charities, etc.

Sure, the psychology of that value proposition may be hard to accept ("$120 for a $10 whistle!!"). And it's a shame that the playing quality of Gens is variable, without talking extremes. But if you're not in a position to simply hop over to Custy's or similar shop for a toot ... well then maybe you just have to do what you have to do. After all, the end goal is simply a nice whistle regardless of cost, in this case with the classic Gen sound and feel. And it's clear that many people are in fact willing to pay for that.

[Pyroh]

Well, those 12 generations are a risk - it can go good, or wrong, that´s simple...you can get 5 great whistles in it, if you´re lucky, but you can get all horrible pieces too.

The closest available shop having Generations to me, is about...well, not sure, but I guess that hardly less than 500 miles (or 900 kilometers). But I ordered 5 of them (partly in different keys). The D was about in tune, but had awful sound (much worse than my older Clarke Sweetone), second D was very badly molded, so it was nearly unplayable (it was screeching, not whistling) C,F,G were badly out of tune.

I´m not rich enough to take more risks - that´s why I prefer "certainity" of Overtons. On the other hand, that may be just my conditions - I can very well realize, if I had 3 shops close to me, where I could try those whistles, I´d try them, because I think that good Generation is one of two sounds I like the best...

[Wanderer]

The production process has variables, Dale once mentioned 'quality control' and it has been parroted ever since. In my experience, and I have tried this a number of times during the ongoing discussions, you go to a shop, try a half a dozen or so and pick the one you like best and you come away with a fine whistle for €4.

I think it's also been mentioned a number of times in the ongoing discussions that most people can't pop into a shop here in the states and try a half-dozen and pick the one good one out of the mix. Most inexpensive whistles here now have plastic over the mouthpiece. Even those that don't, most shops don't let you toot on them before you buy them, due to the fear of germs.

And then, not all of us live in Ireland, where a tinwhistle is a well-known instrument. I used to be lucky in that I lived by a shop that carried a variety of brands. Now that I live in Dallas, I'm not so lucky, and all of my purchases would have to be through the mail.

I seem to recall you yourself posting about going to Custy's, trying 12 whistles, and only 25% or so being "clean" sounding, and you bought one of those. I dunno about you, but to me, a 1-in-4 chance of getting a whistle that suits you through the mail (which is what this equates to) doesn't sound like good odds.

Those other 8 whistles may have been playable--but you yourself turned them down when buying one. It seems unfair to tell that someone who might get one of those at random "what's wrong with you? it still makes a note..who cares if it's scratchy/hissy/whatever. It's a whistle..get on with it"--especially when you yourself turned them down for having characteristics you weren't looking for.


(edited to fix 6am typos)

[Cayden]

Well there's a bit of reverse psychology as well: as long as we persist in the idea that Mary Bergin and the likes of her have really really special ones of a kind we are not likely to ever find, we can feel more comfortable not sounding like those players.

For the past thirty-five years or so I have seen Generations widely available all over Western Europe, they are easy to come by in the Netherlands, Germany, France, Belgium and the UK. And I have picked up ones in all of these countries. I am sure they can be found in other countries as well. On the other hand, I rarely get to see or try certain types of designer yokes. I am ever so curious to try a Hudson but don't think it will happen any time soon, so well, I will probably never have one. So be it. Do you hear me whining about that?

[bradhurley]

Coming at this from the flute world, I think there are some parallels. There's even more variety among flutes by the same maker because of all the hand-work involved; I've never played two flutes by the same maker that sounded exactly the same.

And conical-bore flutes all have tuning issues that a good player learns how to compensate for, but you still hear people complaining about a "flat bottom D" or a "sharp A," when those are features of almost every good flute. You learn to play around those qualities of the instrument and blow it into tune, it's part of the process of learning to play the flute and of learning how to play your particular instrument.

Similarly with whistles, there's a process of adaptation that goes on where you learn to deal with what you have. A few years ago I sent the very first whistle I ever bought, a Generation C made in 1975 or 6, to Jerry Freeman for a new head because the original head had gotten so chipped and cracked as to be unplayable. He sent it back with a tweaked head, and I liked the sound a lot except it seemed a bit too loud in the second octave, not as balanced as the original head was. But over time I unconsciously learned to bring the two octaves into balance and it sounds fine to me now.

The second whistle I ever bought was an untunable one-piece D with a wooden plug (similar in style to a Clarke) made by Ralph Sweet in the early 80s. I loved that whistle, it was breathy and old-sounding, but warbly and a bit out of tune in spots. After a year of playing it, though, its shortcomings seemed to be magically overcome, it was simply a matter of me getting to know the whistle and how to play it.

So I guess my view is that while there are certainly some whistles that one could reject out of hand if they have a major and obvious problem, there's an argument for taking one that's not "perfect" but that has potential, and then learning how to play it. I like instruments that require you to meet them halfway -- they assert their character into the music.

[scheky]

Well there's a bit of reverse psychology as well: as long as we persist in the idea that Mary Bergin and the likes of her have really really special ones of a kind we are not likely to ever find, we can feel more comfortable not sounding like those players.

And thus we have the crux of Peter's argument. He still assumes that the only reason people buy a whistle that's NOT a Generation, or say anything bad about any Generation is that they either hope some magic whistle will make them sound as good as Mary Bergin, or give them an excuse as to why they don't sound as good.

That says some things. It's also a completely ridiculous argument. Now, I've often stated that a whistle does NOT a player make. I've often said that by the time you can do an expensive one justice, you can play just as beautifully on a cheap one. However, and I will make this very clear, there are differences. Absolute and quantifiable differences. Is the money worth it? Well...since I can afford it, sure it is. Something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. I bought my Purpleheart whistles because I like the feel of the wood when I'm playing, not because I thought it would magically make me the bestest whistle player who ever walked the earth.

To counter your argument, just because Generations have been played for years (and honestly, not all that long in the scheme of things) doesn't mean it's the end of development for the whistle. I've seen, in the last couple decades, a tremendous improvement in whistles. Fipples have changed, allowing for more backpressure, and thus more expression. I've seen whistles with more chiff, more purity of tone, more flutelike tone, loud and quiet whistles. These are all qualities that one would pay for.

This argument is old...tired. What's also old and tired is the amount of scorn displayed for a large amount of this board's participants (past posts would more than verify this statement).

Heck, I barely play the whistle anymore, having switched to harmonica. I don't know why I even bother.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

I have never complained about the quality of any of the other whistle brands that I have bought over the years. I lived in Belfast and had only one whistle, a Gen' D. I moved to Australia 20 years ago and now any whistles I buy are over the 'net, so I have no choice but to take what is in our local music store (usually crap all) or else order on line.
The other whistles were fair enough players, many of them still needed a bit of a tweak here and there to clean up the sound, but they were not quite what I wanted in a whistle, so in the drawer they went.
The 5 Gen's I was talking about had no chance of being tweaked unless a new tube body was supplied to go with the fipple which were fine after cleaning off the excess plastic from around the windway etc.
I lined up the 5 tubes and not one of the bodies had the same hole placement, I would say that I just got a bad batch.