Exotic Woods

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
Post Reply
glammers19
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 10:04 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1

Exotic Woods

Post by glammers19 »

Hey! Been perusing the forums for some time now, and decided it was about time I signed myself up.

I'm in the process of contemplating placing an order for a full set (finally) and am curious about wood types. I've seen plenty of exotic materials being used, such as Cocobolo, etc., but I'm wondering what else can feasibly be used without losing or drastically changing sound quality.

This is, again, coming from a relatively inexperienced mind, but it seems that there really isn't a problem with most any type of wood, so long as it is a dense hardwood. Would that be a fair statement?

If so, would hardwood materials like Curly Hawaiian Koa be useable (just as an example)?

Image

Any and all input in this department are much appreciated! In advance, thank you all!
User avatar
djm
Posts: 17853
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 5:47 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Canadia
Contact:

Post by djm »

Usually nly the very densest of woods are suitable; something along the lines of ebony, African Black Wood, iron wood, or any of the rosewoods such as cocobolo. You would have to check a web site for exotic woods like what you have suggested to see if the hardness/density is comparable to these.

djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
User avatar
Jumper
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: San Diego

Post by Jumper »

I've worked with koa a lot, and while it's a great tonewood for stringed instruments like ukuleles and guitars, it's not dense enough or hard enough for woodwinds. I'd say it's comparable to central American mahogany in these respects. (Not Cuban mahogany, which can be much more dense, but is practically unobtainable.) Koa also has a fairly open grain structure, so (like oak) it may be too porous.

Koa sure is pretty stuff, though. I've been thinking of using it to make some bellows, after sealing the grain.
Last edited by Jumper on Wed May 07, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan

Help, Help! I'm being repressed...
User avatar
Steamwalker
Posts: 975
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:42 pm
antispam: No

Post by Steamwalker »

I've seen Koa used many times in guitar backs but can't recall seeing it used in whistles/flutes/pipes before. I don't know anything about pipe-making but dense hardwoods would be your best bet. With the cost of pipes, I'd be loth to be too adventurous with various wood types so be sure to do your homework first before committing to something. The pipemaker could surely provide useful feedback on possible wood choices.
User avatar
billh
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Skerries, County Dublin
Contact:

Post by billh »

Steamwalker wrote:.... The pipemaker could surely provide useful feedback on possible wood choices.
Yes, it makes sense to ask the pipemaker to use a wood with which he (or she?) is familiar.

Timber choice can make a significant difference in sound quality but there are no simple generalizations which entirely apply. It matters a lot what pitch you are talking about, too, as I at least feel that some timbers which work well for flat pitches don't fare so well in concert pitch.

I've used customer-supplied wood before, but only for mainstocks and decorative elements. Most reputable full set makers would be, I think, hesitant to use an otherwise-unknown timber. It is also appropriate for timber to be seasoned after purchase for several years (in general "fully seasoned" timber isn't really fully seasoned, even if you can find a merchant to make that claim), so going outside what a maker has in stock usually impacts schedule also.

Bill
User avatar
Philipp
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:47 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Post by Philipp »

plus you should check if the timber comes from sustainably managed forests. This is definitely always the case in Europe, but can be a problem when purchasing exotic woods. Dalbergia melanoxylon (african blackwood) is highly threatened in its original areal and its hard to reestablish. There are efforts made to regulate the production, e.g. founding plantations and stopping the logging in primary forests, but due to the high demand (coming mostly from woodwind instrument production) there's a lot of illegal logging. Maybe you should go for FSC-certified wood or get it from somewhere in the EU. Boxwood is a very good alternative for example and also laburnum or cherry. There is also new technology like thermal treatment that may provide suitable material for instrument production, making wood much harder. Time will tell if that is an option.

Cheers,
Philipp
User avatar
billh
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Skerries, County Dublin
Contact:

Post by billh »

Philipp wrote:plus you should check if the timber comes from sustainably managed forests. This is definitely always the case in Europe, but can be a problem when purchasing exotic woods. Dalbergia melanoxylon (african blackwood) is highly threatened in its original areal and its hard to reestablish. There are efforts made to regulate the production, e.g. founding plantations and stopping the logging in primary forests, but due to the high demand (coming mostly from woodwind instrument production) there's a lot of illegal logging. Maybe you should go for FSC-certified wood or get it from somewhere in the EU. Boxwood is a very good alternative for example and also laburnum or cherry. There is also new technology like thermal treatment that may provide suitable material for instrument production, making wood much harder. Time will tell if that is an option.

Cheers,
Philipp
To the best of my knowledge there is no FSC-certified wood available that I'd consider an A-grade woodwind instrument tonewood. (Boxwood isn't FSC certified either). There may, however, be a small quantitiy of FSC-certified African Blackwood on the market in the (near?) future. But for now, this is not a particularly viable option unless you don't mind plastic-impregnated bores and tonal compromises. It does of course make sense for customers and makers to know where their wood comes from, and make informed decisions about species and suppliers.

ABW is not one of the more threatened woods in this market, it is not listed by IUCN as endangered, because it is common as a shrub plant. The things that are scarce are mature trees. With ABW there is certainly a thriving black/"gray" market, and I think it would be prudent to be careful about suppliers.

Also bear in mind that logging for the timber industry is not the primary threat to most of these species and forests - it's clearing for argiculture, such as soya and palm oil, and for creating charcoal for use as heating fuel and for gold extraction. Only a few species are actually threatened by selective logging - read the IUCN species reports/data to find out which ones. (A notable exception would be Brazilian Rosewood, which is now CITES Appendix I listed as a consequence of logging pressure, particularly for the string instrument trade). By contrast, you could argue that for the woods which are currently being clear-cut for agriculture, charcoal, etc., the tonewood market can actually help promote species preservation.

I agree of course that better protections for these trees and for sustainable agriculture is important, but at the moment economic pressures are not in favor of farming slow-growing exotics - where they are farmed, they tend to be intensively grown to allow quick harvests and maximum yield, which usually produces less suitable timber for our purposes. I currently use some large pieces of farmed rosewood (marketed as "sonokeling", but the same species as "Indian" rosewood, d. latifolia), for mainstocks, and it's nice for stocks, even hollow ones, but I am not sure I would trust it for chanters, drones, or regulators, as it appears to have been grown too quickly and thus lacks the tight grain and density one wants. Smaller sizes of "sonokeling" in particular can be pretty ghastly in quality.

Another option for those who want to avoid issues of logging exotics altogether is reclaimed wood; reclaimed ebony and rosewood are scarce but can probably be obtained with patience and determination. This is a nice option for folks who want a mahogany bellows but have reservations about the mahogany trade (another genus where selective logging pressure is a major factor - I don't normally make mahogany bellows for this reason, but I do have a small amount of reclaimed mahogany); reclaimed mahogany is somewhat easier to come by.

best regards

Bill
User avatar
reedbiter
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:45 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Roseville, Minnesota
Contact:

exotics

Post by reedbiter »

Aside from the issues of sustainability and tonal qualities another point to consider with exotics is the poisonous factor. Hardwoods by their very nature are extremely dense and contain very toxic oils. There are numerous accounts of woodworkers being very negatively affected by the exotic wood they were working. I've been lucky and have managed to avoid most of the bad ones, though I did start reacting to cocobolo when I was using it a great deal. And I did NOT react well when using pernambuco. Many of these oils can have very serious side effects and if a maker develops or naturally is allergic to a certain oil the results can be terrible.

My first set of pipes was made by Tim Britton from an incredible piece of rosewood. VERY dense and gorgeous, though we never did determine it's species. He only developed an allergy to the wood when he was nearly 100% finished with the set. I recall him telling me his lungs were in rough shape and he had a nasty skin rash...maybe Tim could pipe in here?

I've been using a lot of fruit woods lately like apple, plum, pear and degame/castello boxwood/lemonwood. I find the tone from these woods is very pleasant and rewarding, though sometimes extra care must be taken with the bore finish. And I've come to prefer them to the sharper /harder sound one gets from ebony and blackwood. These fruitwoods also grow faster and are much easier to replenish. They are not toxic and are quite pleasant to turn. IN fact pear has frequently been used for many years as a substitute for ebony as it can be easily turned, it's quite hard though with a somewhat rounder tone that ebony, and it can be stained black to look like ebony. Heh, I once had a chanter made from apple or pear that had been stained black and it took me some time to discover the fact...nice chanter.
User avatar
Philipp
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:47 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Post by Philipp »

It does of course make sense for customers and makers to know where their wood comes from, and make informed decisions about species and suppliers.
That is what I basically wanted to point out. One should inform himself about the things he buys and also consider environmental issues. Of course the timber market is far to complex to describe everything in a post here. And also FSC is not the solution to everything (can sometimes worsen things...).

Cheers, Philipp
User avatar
reedbiter
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:45 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Roseville, Minnesota
Contact:

exotic wood eye candy...

Post by reedbiter »

If you're interested in a great website for exotic woods check out
www.gilmerwood.com

these guys are GREAT..the website is incredibly pic heavy with pic after pic of exotic woods.

I've used them for some of my turning stock. They were a great source for curly lemonwood.
Dionys
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2001 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Greater Northwest, America

Post by Dionys »

They're local :D
Tir gan teanga <--> Tir gan Anam.
jdevereux
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:27 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Asheville NC

Post by jdevereux »

I spent some time hanging around Chris Abell's shop, and a guy sent in a chunk of Koa wanting a g whistle made out of it. I haven't been down there in a while, so I'm not sure how it turned out, but I could give Chris a shout and find out if you like.
-Jack Devereux
Charlie Skelton
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:49 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Essex UK

Post by Charlie Skelton »

Regarding sustainability of African Blackwood, there was a program on radio 4 last week about instruments and timber and featured the Mpingo (ABW) Conservation Project in Tanzania.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_a ... undingpost

Cheers,

Charlie.
User avatar
Brazenkane
Posts: 1600
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 6:19 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Boobyville

Post by Brazenkane »

To the best of my knowledge there is no FSC-certified wood available that I'd consider an A-grade woodwind instrument tonewood. (Boxwood isn't FSC certified either). There may, however, be a small quantitiy of FSC-certified African Blackwood on the market in the (near?) future. B
best regards

Bill[/quote]


all signs point to African Blackwood not being available for much longer.
User avatar
billh
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Skerries, County Dublin
Contact:

Post by billh »

Brazenkaine wrote:
billh wrote: To the best of my knowledge there is no FSC-certified wood available that I'd consider an A-grade woodwind instrument tonewood. (Boxwood isn't FSC certified either). There may, however, be a small quantitiy of FSC-certified African Blackwood on the market in the (near?) future. B
best regards

Bill

all signs point to African Blackwood not being available for much longer.
"all signs" ?
Post Reply