Question about PVC material

[Darren]

Just wondering if there is much difference in the dimensions of PVC and CPVC.

I have made a couple of flutes using the measurements from Doug Tipple's site for making a D flute and am not sure if I am just not getting the holes right or if there is a difference in the materials. I think Doug's measurements are for PVC.

It's close to being in tune (I mean with itself) but not close enough for me. I might be a millimeter off on one or two holes but am pretty sure it should be close enough.

I got thinking this because the first flute I made was a G flute from Mark Shepard's instructions which actually specify CPVC. It sounds like it is almost perfectly in pitch (with itself at least). I assumed that there was just a difference in the composition of the PVC but am not sure now.

So, is there a difference in the dimensions between the two? If so, would it be enough to make the tuning "off"? Or should I never touch a hand drill again?

[Doug_Tipple]

Just wondering if there is much difference in the dimensions of PVC and CPVC.

I have made a couple of flutes using the measurements from Doug Tipple's site for making a D flute and am not sure if I am just not getting the holes right or if there is a difference in the materials. I think Doug's measurements are for PVC.

It's close to being in tune but not close enough for me. I might be a millimeter off on one or two holes but am pretty sure it should be close enough.

I got thinking this because the first flute I made was a G flute from Mark Shepard's instructions which actually specify CPVC. I assumed that there was just a difference in the composition of the PVC but am not sure now.

So, is there a difference in the dimensions between the two? If so, would it be enough to make the tuning "off"? Or should I never touch a hand drill again?

Hello Darren, the instructions at my site for making an Irish flute from pvc pipe specify 3/4" schedule 40 pvc pipe. The yellowish cpvc pipe has more chlorine in the compound, and it is used for hot water plumbing. However, to make matters more confusing the dimensions are different for the two types of pipe: pvc and cpvc. Clearly, the people that determine the standards don't want the user to interchange the two types of pipe, as pvc pipe will become soft and bend under household hot water temperatures. I don't use the cpvc pipe because I am sensitive to the way it smells and the way it feels in my hands.

So if you want to use cpvc pipe, I recommend that you measure the dimensions of your cpvc pipe and use the link to the flute calculator at the bottom of the flutemaking page at my website. The calculator will adjust the position of the finger holes for the pipe with different dimension. By the way, I think that 3/4", schedule 40 pvc pipe is a better pipe size for the low D flute. The closest cpvc pipe has a smaller internal diameter and thinner walls, so the low D will not come in as clearly as they will on a similar flute made from the larger ID pvc pipe.

If you want to compare dimensions of the two types or pipe, that is easy to do online. Happy fluting.

[Darren]

Well, no wonder it was sounding "off" to me. thanks Doug.

I had been going to my local Canadian Tire store which doesn't have the regular PVC, so today I am off to a plumbing store.

Thanks again.

[highwood]

Also watch out for the fact that while the OD (outside dimension) of tubing is consistent (it needs to be so that the fittings fit) the ID (inside) can vary.
For example I've had 1/2" cpvc vary from 0.472 (that was a year ago - quoting from memory) to 0.486" with one pipe in between in between - so plugs turned for one do not fit another, and it makes a small difference in the positioning of holes.

[Darren]

Who knew this was going to be so difficult.

Hats off to all those that make flutes.

I just checked in a local plumbing store and am pretty sure they are trying to gouge me ($15 for 10ft of PVC), so I am just going to try the flute calculator and make it from CPVC.

Doug, I appreciate that the PVC is better for the D but I am still experimenting and being cheap. I have no real point of reference so its all good as far as I know.

Actually, I did find a local PVC Flute maker (McFlutes) and he has offered to let me try one of his grey PVC flutes. It will be nice to try one made by someone that knows what they are doing. That will help me a lot in choosing which type of flute to buy when I am ready.

BTW Doug, he has bought one of your flutes and was saying how good it is.

[Doug_Tipple]

With regard to price, in the stores where I shop cpvc pipe is more than twice as expensive as a similar size pvc pipe. It varies, but I pay about $1.50 for 10 feet of 3/4", schedule 40 pvc pipe

[Darren]

...ouch...

Obviously I was being gouged. Maybe I will call around some to see how prices are at other places.

CPVC from the a large format store (that doesn't specialize in plumbing) is about $5 for 5ft, which still seems kind of high compared to $1.50 for 10ft. Although, you must be getting some kind of volume discount at this point.

[Feadoggie]

Darren, if you can't find the schedule 40 pvc while you are out shopping for pipe, don't overlook the electrical department of the hardware stores. 3/4" grey PVC electrical conduit has a marginally larger ID than 3/4" sched 40 pvc water pipe and it can make a nice flute as well. It's really affordable too - under a couple dollars for 10 feet. I have used both with good results.

Feadoggie

[Darren]

Sounds good, thanks for the heads up.

I think that the sched 40 grey in Canada is supposed to be the same as sched 80 in the US, but not entirely sure.

I did call around and found a place that will sell me a 10fter for $7..good enough.

Let you know how I make out.

[hans]

Doug,

have you ever tried schedule 80 PVC tubing?
Reading the specs it is thicker (heavier of course),
slightly narrower bore.
It may give a better tone for the flute, I wonder?

I wish there would be a UK supplier for PVC pipes, I like the density
and dimensions better than the PEX tubing sold in UK DIY stores for water pipes.

[Doug_Tipple]

Doug,

have you ever tried schedule 80 PVC tubing?
Reading the specs it is thicker (heavier of course),
slightly narrower bore.
It may give a better tone for the flute, I wonder?

When I mention a pipe by a schedule number, I am referring to an ASTM desgination. In the USA the American Society of Testing Materials sets the standards for many types of materials. There is also a group of similar books with military specifications. When I was working in a testing laboratory for a company that made aerospace products, we used both standards.

With regard to the thickwall, schedule 80 pipe, I have experimented with it. The thicker wall gives plenty of material to cut an embouchure hole with sufficient chimney depth so that you don't need a lip plate to add material. However, I have found that the deep finger holes are a problem. Smaller deep finger holes generate intonation problems unless you spend a lot of time seriously undercutting each finger hole, whereas with the schedule 40 pipe, you don't need to do this nearly as much. Also, flutes made from schedule 80 pipe are heavy. Although there are people who claim to successfully make flutes (I haven't played them) from schedule 80 pipe, I have chosen not to do so for the reasons mentioned above.

[srt19170]

Doug surely knows this, but it is worth mentioning that PVC pipe is manufactured to exterior dimensions and minimum wall thickness. The interior dimension of (say) 3/4" Schedule 40 is nominally 0.824" but the actual dimension will vary a surprising amount depending upon the manufacturer. If you shop around a bit you may be able to find pipe with thicker walls if that's what you want.

Now, as to why none of the dimensions of 3/4" PVC are actually anywhere near 3/4" I have to defer to the civil engineers...

[hans]

thanks Doug!

searching the web for possible pipe suppliers near home i came across the possibility of using ABS pipe. Have you had any experience using ABS pipe? It seems the material is declared non-toxic and quite tough.

Dimensions:
3/4" ABS pipe outer diameter 26.8mm, wall thickness 1.8mm for class E pipe (up to 15 bar pressure), and 3.7mm for class T pipe (thick for threading).

[Darren]

No idea how accurate this is, but on Mark Shepard's site he says this about ABS;

"DO NOT use ABS pipe for flutes. Since it is meant only for drainage, there are no restrictions on the toxicity of the chemicals added to it."

shrug

[hans]

No idea how accurate this is, but on Mark Shepard's site he says this about ABS;

"DO NOT use ABS pipe for flutes. Since it is meant only for drainage, there are no restrictions on the toxicity of the chemicals added to it."

shrug

I wonder if this is accurate. Perhaps there are pipes and pipes (like flutes!).
See http://www.pipestock.com/abs-pipe/ :

"Pipes manufactured from Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene are suitable for the conveyance of potable water, slurries and chemicals. Being non toxic ABS complies with the toxicological requirements of the British Plastics Federation and the British Industrial Biological Research Association (BIBRA) code of practice for food usage."

Susato whistles are made of ABS, or not? Of course not from pipe, but injection molded.