Funky C's & F's

[gaelic_gale]

I learned to play the whistle from Chieftains CDs years ago. Once I got the basics, I stumbled upon a beginner whistle class and took it. I was quickly singled out as the one (of 12) that did not learn from tutorials and the only one who half holed funky C's & F's. Oddly enough I was not encouraged to change my fingering. I was told that many great whistlers (& pipers) played that way.

It has now been 10 years and I still half hole the odd C's & F's. I never learned to "cross finger". I still can't read music to save my life (not that I try), but I have an impressive collection of tunes under my belt.

The problem: I have decided to learn the flute. I bought a very nice Copeland keyless and have struggled ever since. It's not the flute.

My question: Is it at all normal to play the flute half-holing the odd C's & F's? Am I wasting my time? Will I have to relearn everything?

[seisflutes]

It's more usual on flute to cross finger the C natural (oxx ooo). I find it slightly tricky to half-hole that note on the flute anyway because of the different (from the whistle) hold.
If you have a keyless flute, it's pretty normal to half-hole F natural.

If I were you, I'd give the cross-fingered Cnat a try. And how long have you been playing the flute? It's very normal to struggle for a while. Good luck!

[Flutered]

I'd tend to half hole on the whistle - I know what you mean, it's more intuitive.
But on flute, I switched to cross fingering the C nat when I started playing with the 'standard' grip. I could half hole Cnat with the 'pipers' grip OK but that is more uncomfortable grip on flute, in my experience. Maybe it's possible too with practice with standard grip - OK if you're just sliding up from B, say in a slow piece but harder at speed.

Fnat is troublesome on a keyless flute, I half hole it, coming up from an E .. but is usually a fit fuzzy for me.

[jemtheflute]

Fairly much agree with previous posters - on keyless, half-hole is the only option for F natural - OK for occasional accidentals like in Tabhair Dom Do Lamh or Cook in the Kitchen or Queen of the Rushes, but no good for playing it regularly in keys where it is part of the main scale.

For C nat, personally I never half-hole on either whistle or flute. Do it if you like - it's not a bad part of one's armoury, but it is more awkward on flute than on whistle, and on either ultimately the cross-fingered approach is both more precise and easier. You just have to get over that lump of learning it. Once you do, which should only take a couple of weeks serious attention to the issue, you'll wonder why you didn't do it before. It is often easier to learn such technique changes in the context of new tunes, not to try to change everything you already know. Crack the technique in new contexts first, then start to apply it to your existing repertory a tune at a time.

On most (not all!) flutes the best Cnat is oxo xxx and on most whistles it is oxx xox: only on relatively few of either (even where given in fingering charts supplied by the maker) does oxx ooo give the most in tune, strongest toned C nat, notwithstanding that it is the most commonly taught fingering! Try out all three and see which is best sounding on your particular instruments. Both the alternatives I suggest also have the advantage that they only require a single finger change to go to D (and make rolls on C nat and to Cnat from D accessible if you want them).

[Flutered]

On most (not all!) flutes the best Cnat is oxo xxx and on most whistles it is oxx xox: only on relatively few of either (even where given in fingering charts supplied by the maker) does oxx ooo give the most in tune, strongest toned C nat, notwithstanding that it is the most commonly taught fingering! Try out all three and see which is best sounding on your particular instruments. Both the alternatives I suggest also have the advantage that they only require a single finger change to go to D (and make rolls on C nat and to Cnat from D accessible if you want them).

Maybe.. but Cnat B Cnat etc. are common enough and then it's a pain to switch all your fingers up and down.

[peeplj]

Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with half-holing!

There is one tune, Slieve Russell, that I always half-hole the C on, even on a keyed flute, just because I like the sound and feel it gives the tune.

--James

[ChrisCracknell]

Another option which I personally like is to add a thumb hole for the CNat. All the other options still work ok if you leave your thumb on the flute and you can also get a great and very easy Cnat with the thumb. Makes tunes like, e.g. Gravel Walks a lot easier... It depends a lot on whether you hold your flute in a way that allows your left thumb to move freely or not.

And the C# with the thumb hole vented is slightly higher than the normal one on the flute which often tend to be slightly flat due to, as I understand it, the c# hole also having to vent the second octave D. Someone correct me on this if I am wrong. Of course, sometimes the "flattish" c# is used as a virtue, but as always, the more options one has the better in my opinion.

And I half hole FNat on my keyless flutes. Works a lot better on the bigger holed flutes than on the smaller holed one. I also half hole G# these days. Bflat I cross finger and Eflat I don't even try.

[jim stone]

Finally there's a flute with a Cnat key and a Fnat key.

There's nothing the matter with half-holing Cnat,
if your grip allows.

If it's a problem, do scales in G with a crossfingered
C natural, oh....twenty times a day for a week or more
and you'll have it.

[jemtheflute]

I still pretty much agree with pretty much everything said here so far! Amazing! Chris, you are exactly right about the C# tonehole compromise - on a fully keyed flute one should vent the C key for C#, just as you are advocating with your thumb-hole, which I agree is a good addition on a keyless flute.

I mostly play fully-keyed myself, but vary my use of both the C nat key and the cross fingering according to context/facility.

Flutered, I take your point about B to C nat changes, but would point out that, for the oxo xxx flute fingering you can leave the R hand xxx on and just alternate L1 & 2 (xoo xxx to oxo xxx or vice versa or to and fro) - I find that easier than the switch to oxx ooo (OK, that's partly familiarity) and the xoo xxx for a passing swift B barely noticeably flattens it. I'm by no means saying never use oxx ooo for C nat, just don't exclude any of the possibilities that may serve better in some respects/contexts. For example, oxx ooo is very good for a fast E G c nat e or G c nat e g arpeggio. Mind you oxo xxo is pretty much as good for those...... flexibility and a range of tools for the job!

But if one is approaching using a cross-fingering for the first time, I'd still advocate discovering which one actually sounds best on the particular instrument and stick with that one only until confidence is acquired.

[Cathy Wilde]

Yup, you're fine.

I also like OXX OXX for C but I'm lazy that way; but with it I can just use my right index finger to go to a D from a C natural or attempt a C/D tap, etc. (Note use of word "attempt", there)

[jim stone]

At the end of the day, even with a keyed flute,
a crossfingered C natural is important to have.
Dont know bout thumb holes, but I'll betcha
it's so. There are lots of passages the
crossfingering facilitates. And the timbre
is often what one wants.

[seisflutes]

..... And the timbre
is often what one wants.

I second that. If you have a thumb hole for C, it doesn't give the same slightly muted sound that C nat usually has. I think that muted sound is a nice characteristic of Irish fluting, and wouldn't want to lose it.

That's also why I use oxx ooo, instead of oxo xxx, which I agree is stronger and clearer on my flute. But I don't want it to be that strong and clear.

[jim stone]

Ultimately (sooner or later) one becomes fluent in
several ways of playing C natural.

[ChrisCracknell]

One should of course note that acoustically there is no difference between a C-Thumbhole and a C-Natural key (except that you can slide on the thumb hole). Ergonomically, aesthetically and financially, of course this is not so. And even with either C-natural hole, all your other options remain - all you have to do is just leave the hole covered...

But sometimes I need my C natural to be audible over, and in tune with, the box player next to me... Muted quality is great for solo but in an ensemble (session) it often just means that that note doesn't get heard...

Chris

[ChrisCracknell]

and congratulations, Jim on breaking the 10000 post mark.