Ivory mounted pipes --CITES permit needed for Int. travel

johnpipe108 · Post by **johnpipe108** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:17 pm

I contacted the U.S. Customs about traveling abroad with an ivory mounted bagpipe, and was informed that one needs a permit issued by the U.S. to travel to a CITES country (almost all countries now) with any ivory articles. I was told that if I travelled to France without a CITES permit, the French Government would seize the pipes; the same goes for the return, a permit is needed from France to re-enter the U.S.

As all kinds of permits here in the U.S. are now are backlogged due to post 9/11, it can take several weeks to get a permit.

The suggestion was made to borrow a bagpipe that doesn't fall under the CITES convention, and as time is getting close (I leave for France September 10) I may have to go that route.

I had contacted Oliver Seeler for any info he had, and he had the following to say:

"You're taking a big chance crossing borders with any ivory unless there is full formal documentation. There are horror stories of pipes being seized and having the ivory removed with a hammer. You need to get professional advice about this, I would contact US Customs directly."

FYI, HTH

regards, John

Jeff Cullen · Post by **Jeff Cullen** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:02 pm

* You do not need a permit from us to export or re-export your bagpipe that contains elephant ivory when your bagpipe is part of your accompanying baggage and is for personal use. For bagpipes that contain Asian elephant ivory, the exemption only applies when the bagpipe qualifies as pre-ESA or antique (Pre-ESA means the elephant items were acquired or removed from the wild prior to June 14, 1976, and have not been held in the course of a commercial activity (i.e., bought, bartered, offered for sale, leased) since that time. Pre-ESA items must be accompanied by an affidavit as outlined in the regulations at 50 CFR 17.4. Antique means the article is at least 100 years old and has not been repaired or modified with any new part of an Asian elephant since December 28, 1973.)
* Not all CITES countries recognize the personal effects exemption, and may require a CITES permit. Also, some countries may require an import permit under their domestic legislation. Contact the foreign country to meet its requirements. If the foreign country requires you to have a U.S. CITES document, click here for an application form.
* When you re-import your personal bagpipe, you must provide proof that you acquired the bagpipe in the United States, or proof that you legally exported the bagpipe from the United States. Click here for information on commercially importing and exporting wildliife.

This is an except from the US Fish and Game website.

johnpipe108 · Post by **johnpipe108** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:38 pm

Thanks, Jeff

Trying to find such specific info has been very trying, I am glad to find there is some "exemption". Now, I just have to look up the details, but as may be seen from your quote, it's still not straightforward, one of those "YMMV" situations.

The last line is apropos; without an export permit, how can one prove one legally exported the bagpipe from the US when one returns? The usual bureaucratic hassles apply here! The first and last lines quoted from the regulation effectively contradict each other, not surprising.

I'm asking around locally for a "loaner" set of drones for the pipes I'm traveling with (GHB).

Quote:

* Not all CITES countries recognize the personal effects exemption, and may require a CITES permit. Also, some countries may require an import permit under their domestic legislation. Contact the foreign country to meet its requirements. If the foreign country requires you to have a U.S. CITES document, click here for an application form.
* When you re-import your personal bagpipe, you must provide proof that you acquired the bagpipe in the United States, or proof that you legally exported the bagpipe from the United States. Click here for information on commercially importing and exporting wildliife.

Thanks for the info,

John

Chris Bayley · Post by **Chris Bayley** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:59 am

I take my David Glen GHB's though UK custom and European Customs without any trouble (so far) but they date from the mid 1800's and are name stamped so theoretically they can be shown to be well and truly pre-ban. However an awkward customs official might claim that mountings can be replaced.

Musical Instruments made from or containing materials now covered by the CITES regulations are a potential problem when moving from country to country and the subject has also been covered on past threads.

I have been in touch with CITES to find out if reworking elephant ivory from Victorian carved tusks, billiard balls etc. is legal as it is well and truly pre ban but it actually fails and once reworked is classified as if 'fresh'

The following site and links confirm this. Note that a receipt showing the date the instrument was made is not enough.

http://www.bluegrasswales.org/CITES.htm

Dionys · Post by **Dionys** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:12 am

So has anyone actually gone through the process of getting a CITES certificate? How does one do so?

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:21 am

Yes I have and it was easy.I telephoned the local office (see list on website)and they helped me loads.It wasnae expensive either I think about £5.
http://www.cites.org/
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
ps It is much easier and saner not to bring your ivory abroad.If your into traveling get a cheapo set.

emer · Post by **emer** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:16 am

I recently contacted the National Parks and Wildlife Service - the government agency in Ireland that deal with CITES - and asked to be put through to the section that deals with CITES which, in my innocemce/ignorance I pronounced to rhyme with 'sites' .
I was put through to the National Monuments section - they deal with archeological 'sites' among other things. When I explained to the civil servant what I was looking for he fell off his chair, recoverd himself very nicely, and told me that this is always happening.
It is, apparently, pronounced 'SITEES'.

Dionys · Post by **Dionys** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:00 am

Uilliam - I hear you on the cheapie set for traveling. That's what I do. I'm just looking ahead for when it's time to leave America because our children's children's children's futures have been mortgaged.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:09 am

Well that would be the time to get a CITES or send it in the container wi the rest of the household stuff.As for travelling methinks Daye, Dixon et al would have no trouble at customs and would be replaceable in the event of a mishap.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

Elmek · Post by **Elmek** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:21 am

Out of curiosity how big a problem is this. I would guess a number of people on the this forum have pipes mounted in ivory - can they prove that it is all before the CITES embargo

Are there any makers out there still using ivory albeit salvaged from snooker balls and carvings

Perhaps it is time for a poll

John