"beater" flutes

[tin tin]

Recent threads, like the delrin and "flute for India" ones, have me wondering how many players find the need for an additional, non-wood flute for less genteel circumstances?
I've never played flute in the Arctic, under water, or in the mud, so I've never found myself in a situation where I felt my wood flute was in peril, but perhaps others have different experiences...?

[chas]

I have a plastic flute and less-expensive wood flute that I take on long trips. I just got back from two weeks, one of which was spent camping. I don't want to leave an expensive flute in the tent, nor in a parked car in the heat of the day, so I like to have one Irish and one Baroque flute for such circumstances.

[scheky]

I had a horrible reaction to a blackwood whistle (Thin Weasel) that left me with major breathing difficulties and thus an inability to play for close to two years afterward (I played it for over a year before realizing it was the whistle causing me such distress).

Since then, even though I know some woods such as Boxwood should give me no troubles, I avoid woods like the plague. Call me over-cautious, but I think I have good reason for my paranoia. I play metal whistles and a Delrin Seery flute. I'm happy that way.

Of course, I do intend to get one of Doug's flutes sometime to have one for my computer bag (which goes to work with me every day). That way, on a beautiful day like today, I could spend my lunch playing along the river.

[Cubitt]

Recent threads, like the delrin and "flute for India" ones, have me wondering how many players find the need for an additional, non-wood flute for less genteel circumstances?
I've never played flute in the Arctic, under water, or in the mud, so I've never found myself in a situation where I felt my wood flute was in peril, but perhaps others have different experiences...?

I get your point and entirely agree. I am comfortable taking my vintage 8-key anywhere. I'm lucky enough to have two Casey Burns flutes that are keyless. His mountain mahogany one is lighter weight, so it has become my backpack flute when one is needed, but those occasions are rare.

I would never, ever, ever, ever get a delrin flute. They seem like cheap imitations to me, even when they play well. I just don't see the point. All this stuff about cracking to me is bogus. What do clarinet players do? Not aware of cracking being an issue, but perhaps I'm wrong. I started on clarinet, so I think I would have heard something along the way.

I think many around here agonize too much about this and that. Find a good instrument and stick with it. The arguments about embouchure cuts, keyed or not keyed, wood type, etc. are fun, but what you really want is a flute you've actually tried (or had an experienced player try) and found pleasure in. The rest is just parlour talk.

[I.D.10-t]

What do clarinet players do?

I knew a sax player that had a horn just for outdoor marching band events. Her good one was always played indoors. Something about pads and stuff…
But that was just one person that I know.

Personally I have two fifes that I use often, I would not be likely to take my Peeler to the boundary waters or on an airplane (inspections, baggage handlers, etc.) but I have brass one that I use instead.

[Casey Burns]

Let me weigh in here.

My experience turning plastics in general is that these offgas when turned. I am by nature chemically sensitive (this is increasing with age) and have thus avoided the use of these substances - including the alternative ivories made by GPS made from polyester resins which I used to use for bagpipe fittings. In the past I have made plastic flutes from this material (it is more expensive than Delrin but much easier to turn. Why is nobody making flutes from this?).

I see Delrin marketed as a substance that won't crack in use, as its major advantage. This non-cracking feature is perhaps true but it gives the false impression that wooden flutes by nature are highly crack prone - thus something best avoided and feared.

In my experience I would say about only 2% of my flutes come back with cracks and these are largely due to user error - things such as allowing the tenons to get too tight from wet playing, or not breaking in the flute adequately. This is a low number, but typical among the industry from what I have observed. Thus one is only getting a 2% advantage in using plastic over wood, as far as cracking is concerned. To me the issue of non-cracking superiority of Delrin is 98% hype and not worth the 2% advantage.

And for these 2%, cracks are hardly a big matter. Museums consider these as "expansion joints". The number of original Rudalls and Prattens out in the world includes ones with cracks - yet we continue to play them because they are great instruments. When cracks occur, these are generally easy to deal with.

Blackwood and Mopane are capable of abuse to some degree. The climate in Tanzania where these woods come from is commonly more severe than even inside our cars on a hot day thus these are able to take some abuse. The climate in my sweat box of a workshop can also be somewhat challanging yet my instruments don' t seem to suffer. Very simple precautions of keeping the instrument at least humidified can lessen the risk. Many of my clients use such instruments as their "beaters" and leave their original Rudalls at home.

My impression of Delrin is that acoustically it is "dead" - at a fixed point. It won't improve with age. The opposite is the case with wood. All of my flutes improve with age - even the beaters out there. This is due to slight warping and ovalling of the bore - something Delrin won't do.

As long as good wood is available (in 26 years of flute making, wood has always been available) and it is properly cured, I don't see any advantage of plastics.

Casey Burns

[Doug_Tipple]

I agree with Casey about the need to be careful when turning, boring, or drilling polymers in general. They all will offgas during this process. For example, PVC will offgas vinyl choride gas, if I am not mistaken, and that isn't something that you want to breathe. However, you have to use similar care when turning many hardwoods. The fine wood dust that floats in the atmosphere is toxic, to say the least. Good ventilation and breathing masks are called for when turning blackwood or polymers, such as PVC or Delrin, in my opinion. I use a Sears brand mask with combination particle and activated carbon filter cartridges whenever I am turning or drilling PVC.

Casey mentioned that he didn't see any advantage of plastics. I realize that what he was talking about is a comparison of similar, conical-bore flutes made from either hardwood or delrin. Without refuting what Casey has said about the relative merits of polymer vs. wooden flutes, I do want to mention price as a possible advantage of plastics. Because PVC is available as extruded pipe, it is possilbe to easily make a very-playable, low-cost flute. I suspect that molded, conical-bore flutes made from ABS plastic will soon be on the market. Focusing merely on the purchase price, at the present time I am not aware of a fully tunable, good wooden flute that can be purchased for under $100, for example.

[Casey Burns]

For the dusts during machining, I use a dust extractor. Works for both wood and plastics.

There is an extruded one key flute by Aulos that has an opened enough voicing that it could be played as an Irish flute. Its more a classical voicing than Baroque. An extruded flute for Irish music is a possibility but I think that the market research indicated too small a market to pursue. Expensive to make and tweak the molds (I looked into this). Otherwise I think it would have been done already.

Casey

[Doug_Tipple]

For the dusts during machining, I use a dust extractor. Works for both wood and plastics.

If I remember correctly, Casey, I think that you mentioned that your increasing sensitivity to blackwood has meant that you don't work with it during the hotest months in your workshop. I am curious whether you take any precautions when working with blackwood, other than the dust extractor, that you mentioned? Do you wear gloves or use any kind of a mask?

[CranberryDog]

Back in the day, I was in pipe bands in Houston and Austin, Texas. We all had blackwood pipes. We would often move from air conditioned spaces to the great outdoors. In the "warm" months it could mean a change of 30-35% in the heat index

Pipe chanters can get pretty wet, plus pipes have all these tenons to maintain and it is not unusual for the drones to get knocked about. In the many years of piping I have seen one balckwood failue; one blow pipe split and it was mine. Other than that, I don't remember any other problems.

Blackwood could really take it. If you think about, the British Army has deployed with pipers to many harsh climes. Best, Cyril.

[Casey Burns]

Blackwood dust doesn't seem to be bothering me much this year - though I try to avoid any turning when it is above 80F. I also set up several guards so that even the wood chips don't fall on me. Duct tape is great for this.

During our recent heatwave I had the swamp cooler in there going and it kept the shop at a nice 77F at 50% RH. Outside it was near 100F.

Fortunately I was mostly working silver then, having completed most of the flute body turning I needed to do for the summer to stay on schedule.

Casey

[jim stone]

I had a seery pratten, which I bought for travel, etc.
Finally I realized that there was nothing I was doing
with it that a blackwood flute wouldn't do as well.
Pretty tough and hardy wood. The Seery sounded
good, in fact, but I like wood better--more 'alive.'

I suppose if I were going somewhere very dry, the desert,
a flute I wouldn't need to humidify would be helpful.

[sbhikes]

I think it is more a psychological thing that provides the true difference.

A wood flute is simply more precious than a plastic one regardless of whatever percentages in durability or whatnot.

You can drop a plastic flute in a mud puddle and step on it with your boot, then wash it off, and move on. But there's simply something horrifying about dropping a wood flute in the mud and stepping on it with your boot.

Of course, what do I know? I'm just an artistic minded person, not a pragmatic engineer, so maybe I'm wrong. Just seems to me the wooden flute is alive and a plastic one is less so. (And a metal flute is jewelry.)

[Cubitt]

I think it is more a psychological thing that provides the true difference.

A wood flute is simply more precious than a plastic one regardless of whatever percentages in durability or whatnot.

You can drop a plastic flute in a mud puddle and step on it with your boot, then wash it off, and move on. But there's simply something horrifying about dropping a wood flute in the mud and stepping on it with your boot.

Of course, what do I know? I'm just an artistic minded person, not a pragmatic engineer, so maybe I'm wrong. Just seems to me the wooden flute is alive and a plastic one is less so. (And a metal flute is jewelry.)

As good a sum-up as I've read in this thread.

[Jon C.]

Recent threads, like the delrin and "flute for India" ones, have me wondering how many players find the need for an additional, non-wood flute for less genteel circumstances?
I've never played flute in the Arctic, under water, or in the mud, so I've never found myself in a situation where I felt my wood flute was in peril, but perhaps others have different experiences...?

Hi,
I have been retreating in the desert all week, the temperature is 108, the humidity is around 14%. I brought two antiques with me, my trusty Blackman and my latest Fentum that I got. Also a delrin flute. As long as the cocus flutes are humdified, there is no danger, but I think if I lived here all the time, that it would be much easier to just play a Delrin flute.
What I have found with Delrin, Acoustically the material is very vibriant. Granted it is constant, where as wood may become temperamental, playing better on some days and not on others, especially Boxwood. This I think is a plus, as like Starbucks, you always know what you are going to get out of it.

I have used the duck tape trick also, to keep the chips from flying. The Blackwood is not bad, I am concerned with turning Cocuswood, as it is a little more allergic prone wood. The worst was Cocobollo!
The problem with working with delrin is that it stinks when you turn it, and there is all those little strings that wrap around the flute when you are turning it. The material is harder to finish, as it resists sanding, as it was designed as a bearing material. It is also a known carcinogen. Then there is the fire hazard, as the stuff is highly flammable. Besides that it is great stuff...