Help a poor string player

Tim2723 · Post by **Tim2723** » Mon May 28, 2007 7:36 am

I'm sure this question has been asked of Highland Pipers until they're sick of it, and for that I applogize, but could some kind piper answer this just once more please?

How can standard tuned guitars and such play along with the GHB? It looks to me like the pipe's scale is G Mixolydian, that is to say, G with a flatted seventh.

I've heard pipes play with other instruments from small bands to full orchestras, but how is it done?

Could someone kindly explain with an example, such as Amazing Grace, what chords a guitar would play to accompany the pipes? Is it even practical to do this? I'm sure it's not traditional for the pipies to be accompanied by anything but certain drums, but I know it has been done before, for better or worse.

Thanks!

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:41 am

Scottish pipes are A Mixolydian, D Major key signature (if anybody bothers to use a key signature). Breton notation uses a Bb Minor key signature which is probably more accurate for the Highland bagpipe with a bell note that usually pitches sharp of Bb. Because of the drones the chanter uses a natural intonation. The Highland pipe's archaic scale and loudness are probably why it isn't traditionally accompanied by more than drums.

But in the case of Amazing Grace you are not bound by tradition. That tune didn't make its way onto the pipes until the latter half of the 20th century and it became a chart topping hit in the UK with the accompaniment of a brass band.

But that doesn't tell you what chords to play. Unless somebody chimes in, use a capo and try playing to a recording (I'd suggest SFU Live at Carnegie Hall).

CHasR · Post by **CHasR** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:46 pm

Capo up one fret, play (in key of ) A & D major chords

Tim2723 · Post by **Tim2723** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:00 pm

Thanks for that lads.

So the 'key' as it were, is roughly A mixolydian with an extra G at the bottom? And the tuning is just rather than tempered to make the intervals meet the drones. Is that right?

I'm not sure I understand where the Bb comes in. I was under the impression that the scale was GABCDEFga. I got that from the instructions that came with my practice chanter. It doesn't mention Bb at all.

A standard tuned guitar EADGBE @ A=440 would play A# and D# chords with the pipes? I think I've got it. I'll give it a try.

Thanks for the help and patience!

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon May 28, 2007 5:14 pm

Tim2723 wrote:I'm not sure I understand where the Bb comes in. I was under the impression that the scale was GABCDEFga. I got that from the instructions that came with my practice chanter. It doesn't mention Bb at all.

It's a transposed scale. The note we call "A" is really Bb, or "Bb and a bit" as I just read Fred Morrison say in an interview. Recently Highland pipes have been pitching in the 472-480 range while Bb=467 and A=440. There have been rumors of some of the current, top grade pipe bands knocking on the doors of 490.

I don't know why the nomenclature differs from the pitch. It's possible that historic pipe chanters were pitched to A Major or A Mixolydian which historically would have been A=452.

Tim2723 · Post by **Tim2723** » Mon May 28, 2007 6:27 pm

Thanks again Aaron. Then would it be that when pipes are playing with other instruments the arranger calls for the pipes to be tuned to a standard pitch? Would the pipes have enough latitude to tune to convential standards and therefore work with the rest of the orchestra?

I've heard that having pipes play with an orchestra is "Done with some difficulty". Do you think then that the orchestra is tuning 'up a bit' while the pipes are tuning 'down a bit'? Getting so many instruments to agree would certain qualify as "Done with difficulty" in my book!

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon May 28, 2007 7:05 pm

A lot of orchestral winds are Bb oriented so usually the pipers aim for Bb=467 and the others blow/lip to close the gap though it's seldom tight. Strings have more tuneability.

In folk bands they often meet eachother half way and/or play relatively pitched instruments like Eb whistles and flutes. Fiddlers can crank it up to Eb pretty easy so it's not too big of a stretch. They just have to amp everything.

Thanks to a lot of development by the likes of Nigel Richards and Hamish Moore the Border pipes are now becoming more popular in folk bands such as Deaf Shepherd, Old Blind Dogs, Daimh, The Finlay MacDonald Band, The Fred Morrison Band, Beolach etc. Border pipes have the same timbre as a Highland pipe but are quieter and are pitched A=440.

Tim2723 · Post by **Tim2723** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:32 am

Thanks so much Aaron. I think that answers my questions and tells me what direction to go.

CHasR · Post by **CHasR** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:32 am

To further confuse the issue, some GHB pipemakers are making chanters pitched as written: (A=440), altho its a rarity for the average GHB piper to own one.

Blame Peter Maxwell Davies for this, who wrote 'Orkney Wedding with Sunrise' for GHB + Orchestra with the pipes playing as written...

Best case scenario for the orchestra is that the (GHB) piper is good enough to know how to bring his instrument down to a reasonably close Bb (466+/-). PDQ Bach did a little more research and in both his comic pieces writes for GHB as: written A, sounding Bb.