WHY do pipes use a natural intonation tuning system.

[tompipes]

Before you all start screaming "heretic"... I'm just asking the question why do pipes use this tuning.

And, why was it never changed.
I mean, so many instruments went through huge changes and developments from 1750 to 1850. Pipes did too, of course, but how come an equal temperment system was never adopted.

Flutes, clarintes, oboes, guitars, Harps and other instruments that you'd see in a music shop in Dublin in the early 1800's were all moving toward a tuning system that was a lot closer to equal temperment. Did pipes ever follow that route?
Weren't there ads from early makers claiming that their pipes can "play in perfect unison with violin, piano and german flute" I wonder were they claiming that their pipes were using a different tuning system or just 'better' than other local makers for sales purposes.

I know it can be argued that no wind instrument can ever be pitched in equal temperament but you can get pretty close. Thats a chat for a different day...

By looking at the tunes in O'Farrell and Colclough publications, in the early 1800's pipers were playing tunes in Bb, A, C and F with keyed chanters.
Were those chanters tuned differently because if you play in A, your 3rd (a very important note in your scale) C# is supposed to be up to 15 cents flat. That won't sound great.

And why would early makers have bothered to place keys on a chanter if they were using a natural intonation system. You can play an A or C or Bb scale quite easily on a fully keyed D chanter but a lot of those notes sound out of tune because of the natural intonation tuning on the D scale.

I know the natural intonation on a D scale works just perfect against the D drones but the provision of up to 8 keys on a chanter and a drones on/off switch leads me to believe that early makers had another system in mind.


So,
my questions are
Why did/do makers use a natural intonation system today.

Did makers like Kenna/Harrington ever get closer to an equal temperment tuning system?

and heres a chicken/egg theory,
Did the rise of the solo piper come from the fact that the chanter did not blend well with 'violin, piano and german flute' after all....


Though for the day.....

Tommy

[djm]

If UPs were to change tuning in the direction you suggest, the first thing that would have to be abandoned would be the drones, and since we still have drones today, I'm guessing that someone along the way said, "No, keep the drones." You ask why we maintain the tuning system that is still in use today? To stay in tune with the drones, I'd say.

I suspect the earlier chanters would not have had keys for the accidentals, but that these were added later in the development at the request of those who were trying to play a wider range of popular music - popular for the time, that is.

djm

[tompipes]

UPs were to change tuning in the direction you suggest,

I'm not suggesting that, I'm just asking why they use the system. Whats the historical reason, did pastoral pipes use the same system etc..

the first thing that would have to be abandoned would be the drones

For at least 150 years pipes have had a main drone switch and independant plugs before that. So pipers have had the option to 'abandon drones' at will for 200 years.

My point again,
Why have makers bothered to make semi-chromatic chanters and provide a method of turning off drones and yet provide a natural intonation tuning system.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm asking why. Did Kenna, Harrington et al have something else in mind that we don't know about today.

Tommy

[sturob]

I had no idea you'd made your own separate thread, Tom; sorry!

Stuart

[Chris Bayley]

Basically you have a reference pitch given by the drones and the chanter has to be in tune with these and the harmonics they produce.

[isityerself]

If the chanter were not tuned Just then it would never be in tune with the drones.

My guess is that the chanter keys and drone switch are there in case the Patron fancies listening to a bit of Bach.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Earliest reference I've come across to a piper playing with a piano would be Tom Kerrigan - vaudeville/Taylor Brothers era. Touhey played with a quartet too, probably fiddle/flute/pipes/piano. But who knows? Judging from recordings of Tom Ennis with piano I don't think musicians were fanatically obsessed with making sure there weren't any mildly beating dissonances. Incidentally if you listen to early Classical recordings you'll hear a lot of funky tuning and timing too. The LP created the beyond-perfect set of standards that Classical musos now see as defacto.
Pipes aren't perfectly in tune with guitars and bozoukis, either. That bother you, Tom? Physician, heal thyself!
If intervals for playing in A clashed mildly with the drones that was an acceptable price to pay, I think. Incidentally you could just look at "A" as simply being a quasi-key with all of its intervals perfectly in tune with D drones - Ennis wrote of something similar in the old article in Treoir, responding to people who thought the pipes were limited to three "keys;" I think he had this in mind.
Also I wouldn't obsess over these music collections having music in these other keys in the first place - perhaps they were intended to be played on the flute or violin or piano. The pipers who could tackle technically challenging pieces like the Soldier T'red (a bit of quasi-classical music) were almost all blind, anyway; most gentleman pipers seem to have been amateurs.

[sean an piobaire]

O Man........What a subject to get lost in !
There was that evolving taste for home music making on the PIANO-FORTE, through out the 19th cent. and everything else, winds, fretted strings etc. had to be modified to play with pianos, which were NOT always tuned to our modern "equal temperment".
For a really good, hard, look at the subject, check out Kyle Gann's website:

http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html

Mr. Gann is a "microtonal" composer who works with a tuning regimen called "Werkmeister lll" and as I understand it, the further out from C major that you modulate to (on the circle of 5ths, to the "sharp" keys, and the circle of 4ths,to the "flat" keys) the more interesting dissonances show up. The main result is each key has it's own special "sound / character". The absence of all the beating of sharp 3rds and flat 5ths of equal temperment isn't THERE in the keys close to home (C major).
He has these sound samples on a programed electronic key board that he can change in concert, with a "flip of the switch". REAL TIME, MAN!!!!
One of the interesting things I learned from Gann, was the fact that J.S. Bach's "Well Tempered Klavier" composition, popularized a tuning that was NOT equal temperment, as we know it, in modern times, even though that was the way it was presented to me (as a historical fact) in Music School.
Gann also goes on to say that our "beating" temperment is really the cause of all the nervousness in our society, and it's the music we listen to,
day in, and day out.
I was attracted to the GHB pipes for really sweet scale you could get against the drones, IF you are willing to use the bees-wax or the electrical tape in and over the tone holes, and get those pure 4th and 5ths.... the neutral 3rds and 6ths etc. that ARE possible....WOW ! What a sweet scale!!
Now it's when you get into the 2nd octave on the Irish Pipes, that it gets quite a bit more tricky to get that same sweet intonation.
To skip back in history.....my favorite subject..........
The Pastoral Pipes were advertised by J. Geoghan as chromatic instruments, as capable of cross-fingered sharps and flats
as the Flutes and Hautboys (Oboes) of the mid 1700s.
These wind instruments were being purchased by the middle class Lowland Scots and English customers, by the bushel, so as to enable the "At-Homes" to play through their sheet music, composed by, more often than not, by G.F. Handel (who was when, a London resident).
In a conversation I had with Jonathan Swayne, Jon said it was really "False Advertising" on the part of Pastoral Pipe makers !!
("What ? Pipe makers making false claims ? Imagine that !)
The Irish Pipe makers were also in the running to service these same
middle class musicians and started putting on the keys, by 1800 at least, if not before, about the same time as Dunn and Peacock were adding keys
to the Northumbrian Small Pipes, for the same reasons (and to keep up with the fiddle tunes).
However, the very steep decline in the economy of Ireland throughout the 19th century, militated against further improvements in that country,
(even on Bagpipes, let alone everything else). So as the Pipe makers and Pipers immigrated to the USA, where some of the innovations and inventions continued to be made, AND where the price you could get for a set of Pipes and the playing of them, rose quite a bit....I believe that in the USA, the Irish Pipe makers were FREE of ENGLISH fashions in home music making. As Music Halls and Vaudeville stages were the venue for SOLO piping, more often than not, there wasn't any real NEED to keep up with the modern instruments then being developed, E.G., keyed Brass instruments, Clarinets, Saxophones, the modern Flute, and so on.
As a High School band musician, I remember what a constant struggle it was, to play in "equal temperment". We were always being told by the band directors that, "It doesn't come tuned from the factory, you have to blow it in tune !" Later, I found out that most of the really good Brass bands like the "Americus Brass Band" modify their intonation, quite a bit, and they do have some very sweet "con-chords". I had a chance to hear them "Live" in 1998, at Clairmont College, near L.A.
Now from my own experience, Church Choirs and Barbershop Quartets, which can sing, unaccompanied by Organs or Pianos, will adopt a more just intonation for singing. The same goes for String Quartets as the fretless finger boards of the Violins, Violas, Cellos, and Bass Viols, have an infinite number of points on the string, where you can adjust the intonation and get that sweet chording you're looking for !
It always is dependent on the sensitivity of the player, of course,
SO.......keep trying for those sweet scales and chords you sensitive..........Pipers !
Sean Folsom

[tompipes]

had no idea you'd made your own separate thread, Tom; sorry!

No bother at all, I think you got in while I was typing mine. Fair play too!

Basically you have a reference pitch given by the drones and the chanter has to be in tune with these and the harmonics they produce.

I understand that and agree too. I'm just wondering about the semi-tones produced by the keys and how they fit into a natural intonation scale. Am accidental here and there is one thing but a whole tune in Amaj....

My guess is that the chanter keys and drone switch are there in case the Patron fancies listening to a bit of Bach.

At last, a theory!! There's plenty of European dance tunes in the early pastoral and union pipes tutors that would support this.
But did the pipers ask the makers to modify the pipes so they could play these trendy tunes or were makers keying up chanters so folk would buy them to play trendy tunes. Who were the inovaters.

Earliest reference I've come across to a piper playing with a piano would be Tom Kerrigan

Didn't O'Farrell and Courtney play with ensembles in the Oscar and Malvina? Mind you, it seems to me that the music in that show was written with pipes very much in mind. Nice tunes but no need for a keyed chanter.
I suppose there was no keyed chanters in 1791 when it was written...

Judging from recordings of Tom Ennis with piano I don't think musicians were fanatically obsessed with making sure there weren't any mildly beating dissonances. Incidentally if you listen to early Classical recordings you'll hear a lot of funky tuning and timing too.

All very true!

Pipes aren't perfectly in tune with guitars and bozoukis, either. That bother you, Tom?

Oh no, not at all. If you examine the tuning of a guitar too you'll find plenty of problems too.

Again I don't have a problem with natural intonation. I enjoy the fact that it gives this great instrument a unique sound.
I'm just curious about the concept of a fully keyed chanter that uses natural intonation.

I guess Ennis was kind of saying that the ones who could afford a fully keyed chanter couldn't use them anyway so learn the solid tunes first and see what you can do then....
Good advice!

Tommy

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

The idea of playing art music or, perhaps more accurately, "quasi-art music" on pipes seems at least as old as the uilleann pipes themselves, if not a good bit older. The Dixon collection of 1733, a collection of variation sets for Border pipes, contained one minuet, for instance. Joseph MacDonald's 1760 work "A Compleat Theory of the Scots Highland Bagpipe" includes some choice words from the author concerning a bellows blown pipe (probably the pre-union pastoral pipes) with an extended range for playing "slow Scots airs, minuets, and Italian tunes"--something that MacDonald (who was also apparently a skilled violinist) regarded as an abomination for an instrument with drones.

There are a number of references to 19th century pipers playing Bach pieces on uilleann pipes, but I think these were generally in a solo context.

Just last week, I had the dubious honor of performing as a guest soloist with the Portland Symphonic Girls Choir for a Celtic-schmaltz extravaganza called "Who But I?" by some dude named Daniel Brewbaker. The piece had originally been premiered in Dublin several years ago with Joe McKenna on pipes. A quick glance at the score is enough to suggest that Mr. Brewbaker didn't bother finding out f**k-all about uilleann pipes before writing the piece--passages that suddenly switch from the key of D to Bb, bits that go below the bottom D, and uses of accidentals that are near-impossible to play cleanly (apparently Joe McKenna thought so also--on the recording I was given, he didn't bother playing most of the accidentals). Anyway, I was pretty nervous about playing this along with a pianist accompaniment because of the just tuning/equal temperment difference, but it sounded decent enough for the most part. The Bbs sounded a bit off, I seem to recall, but everything else seemed okay. Then again, I was more interested in just getting the damn thing over with so I might not have been paying the closest attention...

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

As a High School band musician, I remember what a constant struggle it was, to play in "equal temperment". We were always being told by the band directors that, "It doesn't come tuned from the factory, you have to blow it in tune !" Later, I found out that most of the really good Brass bands like the "Americus Brass Band" modify their intonation, quite a bit, and they do have some very sweet "con-chords". I had a chance to hear them "Live" in 1998, at Clairmont College, near L.A.

Sean--bit off-topic, but check out trumpet maker David Monette's webpage http://www.monette.net. Really interesting stuff about re-designing the trumpet and its mouthpiece to get rid of all the built-in tuning flaws that cause you to have to lip notes up or down, change blowing angle, etc. He's also designed a few "new generation" trombones and at least one tuba (I'd love to get one of his trombone mouthpieces for my ol' peashooter at some point), but I remember him saying once in a lecture that trying to design a French horn that was in tune with itself was a total lost cause...

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

Whoops...got a little carried away with the "post" button.

[MikeyLikesIt]

One thing to keep in mind, this goes along with SportingPitchforks posts, is that 18th century England(perhaps the Scotland too, not sure though) was absolutely obsessed with Italian "art music", which in this period was becoming more and more chromatic. This may have had an impact on the evolution of the union pipes.

[tommykleen]

Heretic!!!

t

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Gann also goes on to say that our "beating" temperment is really the cause of all the nervousness in our society, and it's the music we listen to, day in, and day out.

Isn't music more tuned up nowadays, though? Ever since Eventide started marketing the Ultra-Harmonizer, I think. "Corrects" intervals to a pure form. No more "Wipe Out" guitar solos, Sean!

Also of note, I searched for "Out of Tune" music and one of the first hits was discussion at Session.org, an Irish muzik site. Give us an interval, lad!

There's also something called the Just Intonation Network.

I believe that in the USA, the Irish Pipe makers were FREE of ENGLISH fashions in home music making. As Music Halls and Vaudeville stages were the venue for SOLO piping, more often than not, there wasn't any real NEED to keep up with the modern instruments then being developed, E.G., keyed Brass instruments, Clarinets, Saxophones, the modern Flute, and so on.

Actually most of the Irish flute players in old photos taken in America look to have German or German-style instruments, like my Geo Cloos sticks (won another one on eBay today, too - PARTY! ). Rather flat F#, well, according to flute players anyway! American made wood flutes back then largely avoided the huge holes of English stuff, too.
Back to chanters, these somewhat "flat" notes were also often found on many British instruments. They weren't making flutes for pipers to play with but if they did get together the flatness wouldn't be an issue anyway, I don't think. Wonder what pipe-friendly fluters like Molloy or McConnell have to say about this. Probably something unprintable, actually...
Like Sean says you can pitch anything on a fiddle and that seems to be the usual instrument associated playing with pipes back then.