Which one do you like.
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Flutester
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Which one do you like.
Hi. I am in the process of buying my first button accordion in B/C. It seems that the choices I have locally are the following 3. A Castagnari, a Saltarelle bouebe and a Paolo Soprani folk model. I would like to request your comments on these 3. If you have had bad experiences with one or if you really prefer one over the other, I would like to find out before I make a purchase. I know playing styles differ but the basic squeezebox sound and reliability is what I would like to find out. Any suggestions or advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Jim Casey
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StevieJ
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Castagnari have a huge range - what model are you considering? The Ciacy goes for around $2000, and the Dinn II is closer to $2500, so as Brett says they are quite an investment.
The Bouebe is a bit cheaper and a good instrument. Doesn't look as nice as a Castagnari but sounds fabulous. It has a slightly edgier tone that suits Irish music very well. I had one for a couple of years. If you're buying locally make sure the dealer guarantees that it's well set up as the quality control department at Saltarelle sometimes seem to have off days. Or buy from a dealer like the Button Box in Massachusetts, who will do a thorough pre-sales examination. That proviso aside I would definitely recommend it.
The Paolo Soprani folk model is a 3-voice box and quite heavy at 4 kg. These are not the boxes that made the Soprani reputation (the Soprani name has been taken over by Menghini) and I wouldn't buy one without getting the opinion of an experienced player. Menghini are now making replicas of the classic 1950s Soprani boxes that seem to be finding favour with Irish players, but these are heavier still - and expensive.
If you want something cheaper as a starter instrument, consider the Irish Dancemaster models. About half the price of a Bouebe and well thought of. Good luck!
The Bouebe is a bit cheaper and a good instrument. Doesn't look as nice as a Castagnari but sounds fabulous. It has a slightly edgier tone that suits Irish music very well. I had one for a couple of years. If you're buying locally make sure the dealer guarantees that it's well set up as the quality control department at Saltarelle sometimes seem to have off days. Or buy from a dealer like the Button Box in Massachusetts, who will do a thorough pre-sales examination. That proviso aside I would definitely recommend it.
The Paolo Soprani folk model is a 3-voice box and quite heavy at 4 kg. These are not the boxes that made the Soprani reputation (the Soprani name has been taken over by Menghini) and I wouldn't buy one without getting the opinion of an experienced player. Menghini are now making replicas of the classic 1950s Soprani boxes that seem to be finding favour with Irish players, but these are heavier still - and expensive.
If you want something cheaper as a starter instrument, consider the Irish Dancemaster models. About half the price of a Bouebe and well thought of. Good luck!
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Flutester
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Which one do you like
Thanks for the replies and your advice. Especially about the quality control potential for Saltarelles. I will definitely ask about the setup to make sure it is done properly. I have found a local supplier in Chicago who has a new Saltarelle bouebe for about $400 less than the ButtonBox price. But I don't know if they check it out or are just passing it through to the customer without checking it out thoroughly. I will also check out the Irish Dancemaster. I play other instruments and I have always bought really good instruments with which to learn the instrument. Do you think the Irish Dancemaster is a good reliable accordion? The top of the Dancemaster line is about $500 less than the Saltarelle, so I will definitely consider it. Thanks again and please let me know if the dancemaster is as good as it seems.
Jim Casey
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StevieJ
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Jim, I've never seen a Dancemaster but I've only read good things about them and the man who builds them. One of our posters, Claudine, bought one a few months ago. Might be worth contacting her to ask for her impressions.
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ceemonster
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i like the voice personality of the salt better. it's subjective---castis have beautiful voices, no mistake. the saltarellis have a lot of lung power, a very open yell, and kind of a shriek to them, while castis are more "cute" sounding, and the smaller ones sound a little closed off in some way i can't put my finger on. i keep wanting to say chipmunk-y but that would be an exaggeration.....
having said that, i am playing castis right now because for reed responsiveness, there is no comparison. castagnaris play like butter. it is almost as light as playing a violin. saltarelles, on the other hand.....you hear this again and again, and for me it is true---they are stiffer and much, much harder to play at a fast dance speed. some say it's the bellows and that they "break in," but i am starting to think it is a reed-quality issue, and starting to wonder if it is true that they "break in." i more or less gave up on a beloved bouebe......it's dumbfounding how much faster i can play the castagnari......so for me it's a compromise....love the saltarelle voice, love the castagnari playability....
having said that, i am playing castis right now because for reed responsiveness, there is no comparison. castagnaris play like butter. it is almost as light as playing a violin. saltarelles, on the other hand.....you hear this again and again, and for me it is true---they are stiffer and much, much harder to play at a fast dance speed. some say it's the bellows and that they "break in," but i am starting to think it is a reed-quality issue, and starting to wonder if it is true that they "break in." i more or less gave up on a beloved bouebe......it's dumbfounding how much faster i can play the castagnari......so for me it's a compromise....love the saltarelle voice, love the castagnari playability....
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dwinterfield
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While on this topic, I have a chance to buy a used Delux 3-voice Cairdin for about 1/2 price. It's already here in the US. It has a nice sound and some dings on the woodwork that appear cosmetic. I'm about a year into playing the concertina and while I don't "need" this, it seems like a good opportunity.
Any suggestions as to what I should examine in assessing the instrument? I trust the seller.
Any suggestions as to what I should examine in assessing the instrument? I trust the seller.
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StevieJ
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Well, we aren't supposed to look gift horses in the mouth but in your situation I'd ask myself:
1. Do I really want to learn the box? (Proceed further only if the answer is (yes) or (no but I don't know what else to do with my money)). It might not be such a great investment - if it was worth much more, presumably the seller would be looking for more (see 4. below).
2. Is this the system that, were I to start playing box, I would most want to play (B/C or C#/D or whatever else it might be)...
3. Is this the setup that I would want (3-voice rather than 2-voice? If so, LMM? MMM? Amount of tremolo (wetness)) etc.
I see little point in buying a box just because it seems to be a good deal if the answer to any of the above is no.
4. Then I would ask (the seller) why he or she is selling it at close to half-price.
5. If you're satisifed with the answer, ask to borrow the box for a couple of days and try it out. Apart from anything else this might help you answer 1. above.
Check that all the notes in all the voices are sounding and check the tuning. Watch out for noisy valves esp. at the low end of the scale. See if the tremolo varies widely anywhere, meaning that it's due for a tune-up. Make sure all the buttons are level, move evenly and that none of them stick. Check that the timbre and volume between the two rows is consistent. If you find any problems in any of these areas you could face a bill of up to several hundred $ for an overhaul.
6. Does it come with a bean bag?
Other points: I don't know whether the 3-voice Cairdins have a low bass reed, but the 2-voice jobs don't. If you intend to use the basses seriously, the absence of a low bass is IMO bad news. (To check, test all the bass and chord pairs. If on any of them the bass note is in the same octave as the chord, you have no low bass.)
Check out the air button mechanism. Cairdins use a round push button - as used on the old Paolo Sopranis, yes, but much less intelligent than the triangular lever used on most modern boxes.
The air button mechanism on the only Cairdin I've had a look inside of (an older model) was substandard - my impression was shared by the repairer who was working on it, who was pretty scathing about the design of the entire bass cabinet in fact. A friend who has a newer one has had problems with the air button sticking.
The best thing you could do would be to take it to an experienced player for an honest appraisal.
You did ask...
1. Do I really want to learn the box? (Proceed further only if the answer is (yes) or (no but I don't know what else to do with my money)). It might not be such a great investment - if it was worth much more, presumably the seller would be looking for more (see 4. below).
2. Is this the system that, were I to start playing box, I would most want to play (B/C or C#/D or whatever else it might be)...
3. Is this the setup that I would want (3-voice rather than 2-voice? If so, LMM? MMM? Amount of tremolo (wetness)) etc.
I see little point in buying a box just because it seems to be a good deal if the answer to any of the above is no.
4. Then I would ask (the seller) why he or she is selling it at close to half-price.
5. If you're satisifed with the answer, ask to borrow the box for a couple of days and try it out. Apart from anything else this might help you answer 1. above.
Check that all the notes in all the voices are sounding and check the tuning. Watch out for noisy valves esp. at the low end of the scale. See if the tremolo varies widely anywhere, meaning that it's due for a tune-up. Make sure all the buttons are level, move evenly and that none of them stick. Check that the timbre and volume between the two rows is consistent. If you find any problems in any of these areas you could face a bill of up to several hundred $ for an overhaul.
6. Does it come with a bean bag?
Other points: I don't know whether the 3-voice Cairdins have a low bass reed, but the 2-voice jobs don't. If you intend to use the basses seriously, the absence of a low bass is IMO bad news. (To check, test all the bass and chord pairs. If on any of them the bass note is in the same octave as the chord, you have no low bass.)
Check out the air button mechanism. Cairdins use a round push button - as used on the old Paolo Sopranis, yes, but much less intelligent than the triangular lever used on most modern boxes.
The air button mechanism on the only Cairdin I've had a look inside of (an older model) was substandard - my impression was shared by the repairer who was working on it, who was pretty scathing about the design of the entire bass cabinet in fact. A friend who has a newer one has had problems with the air button sticking.
The best thing you could do would be to take it to an experienced player for an honest appraisal.
You did ask...
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lixnaw
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I wouldn't rush into it either. But i'm not sure what you mean with low bass reeds Steve, my setup isStevieJ wrote:
6. Does it come with a bean bag?
Other points: I don't know whether the 3-voice Cairdins have a low bass reed, but the 2-voice jobs don't. If you intend to use the basses seriously, the absence of a low bass is IMO bad news. (To check, test all the bass and chord pairs. If on any of them the bass note is in the same octave as the chord, you have no low bass.)
Check out the air button mechanism. Cairdins use a round push button - as used on the old Paolo Sopranis, yes, but much less intelligent than the triangular lever used on most modern boxes.
The air button mechanism on the only Cairdin I've had a look inside of (an older model) was substandard - my impression was shared by the repairer who was working on it, who was pretty scathing about the design of the entire bass cabinet in fact. A friend who has a newer one has had problems with the air button sticking.
The best thing you could do would be to take it to an experienced player for an honest appraisal.
You did ask...
A/E A/E D/A D/A
Fs/B Fs/B D/G D/G
I kinda like it that way, i'm not too fond of heavy bass, oompha like, and it's a 2 voice Cairdin, the sound matters most for me.
You're right that there was a problem with the basses in the past, but that appears to be solved. I actually prefere the air button over the triangular
shape i had on my Nuage. What's your opinion on Paddy Clancy's new range ? And have you ever heard of Van der Aa ? http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=49050 ??
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StevieJ
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Lixnaw, traditionally the bass note (as opposed to the chord) on a box sounds in two octaves - I think there are probably usually four reeds: two sound in the same octave as the chord, and two an octave below.
The Nuage you used to own had two stops on the bass side, right? One to cut out the thirds and one to cut out the low bass for when you want a lighter sound.
Well the two-voice Cairdins I've tried, one older model and one newer one (don't know about the three-voice ones) simply have no low bass, as well as no thirds. This is why the bass cabinet on these boxes is so fantastically light. If you look inside you'll see everything in a single reed block with a lot of space around it.
I think no thirds, and the saving on weight, is a good idea for Irish players. But I think no low bass is just corner-cutting, frankly. You may not like oompah bass playing, but when you want to play a G bass note and you get the G above middle C... hello?
And they don't tell you about this on their website, nor, presumably, when you order a box from them.
I know nothing about Paddy Clancy's boxes but I'd like to hear reports from people who have had pleasant dealings with him. For the sake of balance.
Van der Aa's boxes look nice. Han Speek has three, I don't know what that means - maybe you should ask him. A firend of a friend bought a 4-voice and apparently didn't like it at all, not sure why, but he sold it pronto and bought one of the new Paolos, which he does like. All hearsay so take with appropriate pinches of salt.
The Nuage you used to own had two stops on the bass side, right? One to cut out the thirds and one to cut out the low bass for when you want a lighter sound.
Well the two-voice Cairdins I've tried, one older model and one newer one (don't know about the three-voice ones) simply have no low bass, as well as no thirds. This is why the bass cabinet on these boxes is so fantastically light. If you look inside you'll see everything in a single reed block with a lot of space around it.
I think no thirds, and the saving on weight, is a good idea for Irish players. But I think no low bass is just corner-cutting, frankly. You may not like oompah bass playing, but when you want to play a G bass note and you get the G above middle C... hello?
And they don't tell you about this on their website, nor, presumably, when you order a box from them.
I know nothing about Paddy Clancy's boxes but I'd like to hear reports from people who have had pleasant dealings with him. For the sake of balance.
Van der Aa's boxes look nice. Han Speek has three, I don't know what that means - maybe you should ask him. A firend of a friend bought a 4-voice and apparently didn't like it at all, not sure why, but he sold it pronto and bought one of the new Paolos, which he does like. All hearsay so take with appropriate pinches of salt.
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lixnaw
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Paddy Clancy's an expert tuner, one of the best you can find, i'm sure you'll never here any complaints about that. He also delivers excellent custom work , if you know what you want.
I've tried out the latest Van Der Aa recently, and they're effortless. It felt like the box was custom made just for me. That man's impeccable, very precise in all his work. His keyboard is different form others makes, the buttons are placed very close to the rim. For me that felt just perfect and very responsive. I'm sure he can change the keyboard if you feel like the buttons are placed too close. And i feel i'm very lucky to like their sound aswell.
When you know what you want, you can't go wrong, if you order a custom made box, you know you'll get the right instrument. And there's no one left to blame. I believe most of the criticism on box makers isn't justified, it's based on inexperience. You can't blame someone's taste in music or what kind keyboard they like, etc... it's all personal. My advise is to try out as much as you can.
I've tried out the latest Van Der Aa recently, and they're effortless. It felt like the box was custom made just for me. That man's impeccable, very precise in all his work. His keyboard is different form others makes, the buttons are placed very close to the rim. For me that felt just perfect and very responsive. I'm sure he can change the keyboard if you feel like the buttons are placed too close. And i feel i'm very lucky to like their sound aswell.
When you know what you want, you can't go wrong, if you order a custom made box, you know you'll get the right instrument. And there's no one left to blame. I believe most of the criticism on box makers isn't justified, it's based on inexperience. You can't blame someone's taste in music or what kind keyboard they like, etc... it's all personal. My advise is to try out as much as you can.
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dwinterfield
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Thanks for the guidance. I am interested in trying a button accordion. This is a B/C box, with a pretty dry tuning. It's sounds good when the seller plays it. It gets a lot of session use. He's waiting on a custom box being built in Ireland. You've given me a number things to look at more closely. I'm sure I can borrow it for a closer look once his new instrument arrives.StevieJ wrote:Well, we aren't supposed to look gift horses in the mouth but in your situation I'd ask myself:
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You did ask...