ITM and Bluegrass

[In The Woods]

You doing one you're doing the other!
Cheers!

Steve Mack

[johnkerr]

You may think you're doing both, but really you're doing neither. You like having two groups of people hating your guts?

[Ro3b]

Explain, please, Steve?

[Pat Cannady]

The hell


They may use some of the same instrumentation and play a lot of tunes in common time, but the similarity ends there.

If you can't tell the difference you need to listen a lot more. That is, if you care about doing either genre anything like justice.

[Ro3b]

Methinks I detect a windup.

[Congratulations]

Methinks I detect a windup.

I sure hope so.

[Nanohedron]

[I.D.10-t]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, what are the major differences?

If it were comparing something like shakuhachi music to the fife, the differences would be fairly obvious, but in looking at some of the overlap of the music between fife music and ITM, the differences are more subtle.

For example, when listening to the same song being played in the two styles, the fife player would tend to play the tune with a steady beat compared to the “lilt” that would be found in ITM. I have read that ITM often starts slightly before the first beat to give it a lively fast feel, the opposite of which is done in Old timy music to give it a layed back feel. Ornamentation would happen less (I think) in the fife tradition and would include trills (something I have never heard in ITM. Although harmony parts seem to be rare in Fife music it is almost unheard of in ITM.

These are just my impressions though, and I am a novice fifer at best, and have almost no ITM background.

I have heard the “Rakes of Mallow” played in fife music, old time, and I think in ITM, and each had an interpretation that made it “their” song.

[In The Woods]

I was listening to a local group which has cut a CD, where they mix ITM and Bluegrass together, and both of the genres get along very well. There was no insult intended.

I am still struck by the similarities, the meter, the speed, the shared ancestry of tunes, the similarities of sounds in some tunes, how well the two can be blended in a recording; this particular recording has mostly ITM, but it also has more than a couple of Bluegrass tunes and while one can tell the difference between the two, they live together very well.

BTW, the CD is by a local group calling itself The Possom Ridge String Band, from Virginia.

Anyhoo, I think my orginal statement is less provoking than one I came up with as a throw-away line some years back. I said, "I really like all kinds of music, from the very early works through modern composers, but as far as I'm concerned, anything written after 1791 is not...REAL music."

With best regards to all.

Steve Mack

[rh]

A quick google reveals
http://www.possumridge.org/

The Possum Ridge String Band plays Old-Time and Celtic music. We are dedicated amateurs and we have an excellent rehearsal-to-performance ratio. Band members (left to right): Sam Driver, Guitar; Rannie Winn, Whistles; E.J. Burke, Fiddle, Banjo, Mandolin, Guitar, Vocals; Whit Whitfield, Hammered Dulcimer, Autoharp; Peter Bramley, Banjo, Tenor Banjo; Russ Myers, Bones (inset)

Old-Time is usually considered distinct from Bluegrass; Old-Time is closer to ITM than Bluegrass in its performance practice.

Old-Time typically involves unison playing of fiddle tunes (similar to ITM) with little or no soloing. Ornamentation tends to be very spare compared to ITM. Instrumentation tends to be fiddle and 5-string banjo with the possible addition of guitar, mandolin, string bass, autoharp, dulcimer, jug, spoons, etc etc.

Bluegrass usually involves songs with harmony vocals and fiddle tunes with the players taking turns playing more-or-less improvised solos (breaks) in between verses of songs or improvising solo on fiddle tunes. It's a little more like jazz in this respect. Classic BG instrumentation is the quintet of fiddle, mandolin, 5-string banjo, guitar and string bass with deviant innovators adding dobro and possibly harmonica.

These are gross oversimplifications and i'm sure others here will add their 2 cents.

[Brian Boru]

I am no expert on Bluegrass but here are some of the differences that come immediately to my mind.

There seems to be an African American influence on Bluegrass. I don't hear the same influence on ITM. I have heard of some Country tunes described as "White-man's blues". I think that Bluegrass is on the same continuum. For example "Bluegrass Stomp" by Bill Monroe could easily become a blues tune.

Bluegrass tunes often seem to have the I IV V chord progression common to blues and not so common to ITM. A classic example if I am not mistaken is Dueling Banjos which goes G C D for a while and then switches to C G D in the fast part (along with a bit of GGG C G at the beginning -- I know I am simplifying a bit here.)

It seems like many ITM tunes have a low part repeated twice, and a higher part repeated twice. I don't see that replicated in Bluegrass.

I think also the ornamentation on the tunes is very different between the two genres. I think if one were to do rolls in Bluegrass it would sound odd.

There may have been an Irish influence on Bluegrass but there were also many other influences which in my opinion make it unique and not the same as ITM.

[buddhu]

If you want to get a handle on bluegrass, just go over to the mandolincafe. They are obsessed with it, and with Bill Monroe and Lloyd Loar.

There are a lot of tunes that find their way into the repertoires of ITM, bluegrass and old time groups/sessions - Blackberry Blossom is an example that comes immediately to mind, as is St Anne's Reel.

Implementation certainly differs. Bluegrassers don't have the emphasis on triplets found in ITM. If any of you have access to Sam Bush's mandolin DVD you'll hear a version of Blackberry Blossom which is many miles away from any version I've heard played in Ireland.

The I, IV, V thing is certainly common in bluegrass. Stomp is a great example. There was a great video on Youtube (which I think has been removed) where Tim O'Brien, Chris Thile and... don't remember... could have been Sam Bush... anyway, they talked about and played Stomp, and talked about the blues influence.

The Flat/Scruggs Duelling Banjos I think is in G. Most other versions I've heard seem to be in A. A bluegrasser might be surprised that most ITM is in G and D. The same tunes often transpose to A when they get into the hands of these people...

[SteveK]

[quote="buddhu"]
There are a lot of tunes that find their way into the repertoires of ITM, bluegrass and old time groups/sessions - Blackberry Blossom is an example that comes immediately to mind, as is St Anne's Reel.

quote]

I've never heard an Irish version of the American Blackberry Blossom (actually, there are two American Blackberry Blossoms.) There is an Irish tune by that name though but it doesn't seem related to either American tune. I've heard St Anne's Reel played at sessions but it's a Canadian tune. That's not to say that there couldn't have been an Irish original. The Skylark, maybe. But if you look at the old time tunes that have made their way into bluegrass, they often have Scottish names. Lord McDonald's Reel (Leather Britches), Miss McLeods Reel, The Braes of Auchentyre (Billy in the Lowground) and The Red Haired Boy seem to be Scottish. A bluegrass favourite is Salt Creek which is related to The Red Haired Boy.

Different types of music have influenced bluegrass, including blues, gospel, and older American country music like the Carter Family and the whole group of "brothers" duos- The Monroe Brothers (naturally)-The Blue Sky Boys, The Louvin Brothers and so on. Also there's some jazz influence.

There are some totally instrumental bluegrass CDs but the bulk of bluegrass is vocal music which stresses harmony, as has already been pointed out.

[anniemcu]

Old Time would be the first cousin in between the second cousins, with ITM closest to the original trunk of the family tree, and bluegrass out on a limb.

[The Weekenders]

A few weeks back, I heard from a guy in Salinas that showing up with a whistle at a bluegrass session was a good way to cause great anguish and turmoil if not personal injury.