Characteristics of a "good" whistle

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:22 pm

Hi all,

I've been making whistles from PVC and some other things I've found around here (thanks Guido!) and seem to have bumped into a wall with respect to voicing. Maybe I'm seeking the Holy Grail here, I don't know.

On the high D's I can pretty much control the volume and general sound as I voice the whistle, but I am forced to choose between easy to blow D5 and easy to blow A6. It seems one or the other is destined to be difficult to achieve.

Not having found a local whistler or whistle shop, and not having enough experience to know what is expected of the whistle and what is expected of the whistler, I bought a Sweetone, a Susato and a Walton's green tip brass. I like some things about each one, and dislike some things too.

I get the sense that these whistles favor the D5, as I don't like playing the A6 as it's way too loud when I blow hard enough to get the note. Is this just the way it is, or have the more expensive or tweaked whistles somehow solved this?

Sorry to ask about something that is probably common knowledge, but I just would like to know if I've gone as far as I can in making mine, and I should just sit down and play the thing or is there more to be had on the workbench?

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:17 am

I can make some suggestions that could get your whistles to the point you desire. I have discussed this topic with a few whistle makers and have developed a summary. There are just a few simple steps to complete. Really! Before I list the simple steps please realize that there is some “tongue-in-cheek” content here. Don’t take me too seriously. Please look for the laughs. You can pick out the kernels of truth yourself.

Step 1: Start with your Susato or Walton whistles (in fact any whistle will suffice) and learn to play very well. That may take some time. And I know that “very well” is a subjective measure. When you can “nail” playing along with Mary Bergin or Brian Finnegan (depending on taste) on most of their popular recordings, that should do it. This is the most important step because you need to have a high facility with the instrument in order to properly evaluate the whistles you produce.

Step 2: Abandon all other endeavors and apprentice yourself to a master spindle and bowl turner. Once you understand wood, further abandon all else and apprentice yourself to a master machinist for several years. Once you “are the metal” you can decide whether silversmithing and jewelry making are required. You should have amassed a significant amount of tooling by the end of this step. You can double up on step one and step two to save some time.

Step 3: Buy at least one of every whistle made. You can stick with high D’s to economize. Then catalog the playing characteristics of each. Remember, completing step one is a prerequisite to this step. Oh, an oscilloscope and a decibel meter are helpful here as well.

Step 4: Read every article, treatise and book on wind instrument design. Subscribe to all the whistle, recorder and flute making forums on the Internet and memorize the content therein. Pay particular attention to the work of Arthur Benade. Develop your own equations for the mouthpiece correction value. You may want to brush up on your math and physics if you have been away from school for a while.

Step 5: Run the numbers using Benade’s equations on every one of those whistles you purchased. Then compare your expert evaluations against the numbers. The truth will jump out at you and you are done. Use “the truth” to make your next whistle.

There are other methods you could try as well. I like Guido’s method too.

Feadoggie

A-Musing · Post by **A-Musing** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:34 pm

Wow! If I knew whistle-making were THIS EASY...I'd have started makin' 'em years ago!
Now...would you go through that first step...VERY SLOWLY ?

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:52 pm

Feadoggie, I thought it might go something like that.

Actually though, I wasn't asking for the technique to make a good whistle, just was wondering how a "good" whistle acts. In a quantitative way of course. What range should be easy to play, and what should be possible to play? I know there is no limit to the amount of skill and love that can be put into the making of a whistle. And the more that is put is the more that comes out!

But that step 1) is why I ask. Is it me limiting my whistle, or my whistle limiting me? I can't tell the two apart. A fair answer might be either or both.

Guidus · Post by **Guidus** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:17 am

There's a simple trick that alleviates the problem of high notes greatly. I didn't mention it in the low-tech page yet.

Bigger holes make high notes easier to play.

All you have to do is experiment with the hole positions to make T2-T3 slightly bigger than usual. With reference to the measurements I gave on my page: bore T3 at 155 mm instead of 153, and make it 6 mm wide. T2 at 136 mm instead of 133, make it 6.5-7 mm wide. You'll probably lose the ability to play G# in the first octave, but the volume of A on both octaves will be comparable! The effect is even more noticeable on the high B, which can be obnoxious on Susatos and other whistles.

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:11 am

Carey,

I think its terrific that you and others are making their own whistles. It's a great way to understand your instrument along with it's potentials and pitfalls. I have also found that making whistles has eliminated any signs of WHOA I may have had.

The evaluation of a the playing characteristics of a "good whistle" are quite subjective. The evaluation of those characteristics can be related to the level of experience a player has, as well. There are a lot of great whistles out there. More than ever before. There are a few, however, which have been in the marketplace for many years and have always been highly regarded. Which ones you would favour are a personal choice. You can read through the archives of the board to cull them out. Ask yourself the question "Why do professional players select certain instruments?". It's not the endoresement deals by the way. Good players make the whistles good. Some whistles just facilitate the process better than others. Chances are the makers of those whistles understand the physics or suffered through enough trial and error to make the physics work well, frequently with the help of good players.

Making whistles is one of those "bet you can't make just one" endeavors. That's part of the fun of it. What you learn from succesive attempts never ends either. I agree with Guido's suggestions. There is good reason why that helps. Read Benade or several of the Internet sites devoted to his work. Pay attention to your local cut-off frequencies.
Pay attention to the relationship between bore diameter and length. The ratio between the bore and the size of each hole have been discussed above by Guido. These can be expressed quantitatively in ratios between the bore and the hole size. Local cut-off frequency is another quantitative measure of that realtionship. Furthermore, pay attention to the relationship between the bore and the dimensions of the voicing window. The shape and position of your fipple (by this I mean only the plug in the bore) has a great deal to do with the production of high notes as well.

There are several "calculators" out there that can aid you in your design efforts. TWCALC is a fine example (thank you Daniel Bingamon). It illustrates some of the ratios that are key to a "good" whislte. Arthur Benade is lurking beneath the TWCALC gui.

I'll assume you are using the Low Tech Whistle directions. Guido has saved his readers a lot of trial and error by publishing them. Guido's plans represent the the physics quite well. The wall thibkness of the pipe Guido uses is important in getting the most out of his plans. We have had some good discussion on that topic. That's a great place to start.

Have fun!

Feadoggie

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:27 am

Thanks guys, it sounds like I've taken my whistle as far as my current understanding will allow, and it's time to spend some time playing and studying.

And thanks to the whole board and the board makers/managers for making all this possible!

Cheers,

Carey

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:50 pm

Hmmm...I wonder how many whistle makers can actually play along with Mary Bergin at full speed?

Then again, I wonder just how many whistle players can actually do the same.

--James

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:25 pm

Oh, I can do that James. As a matter of fact, I can play so fast, that one is unable to detect any specific melody lines. phrasing or lilt therein.

Philo

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:35 pm

Mary Bergin is a very strong player, and gets a zillion notes off like a summer rain. I go more for nuance, and accomplish my speed and expression by leaving notes out. It must be working. I've been getting a lot of requests to minimize their use as much as possible.

A-Musing · Post by **A-Musing** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:53 pm

Mary Bergin can produce a torrent of beautifully coherent notes...yes.

But can she produce a beautifully coherent whistle?

(fair is fair, boys and girls...)

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:10 pm

A-Musing wrote:Mary Bergin can produce a torrent of beautifully coherent notes...yes.

But can she produce a beautifully coherent whistle?

(fair is fair, boys and girls...)

Very fair...and very true!

If you wait for the Mary Bergins of the world to make your whistles, you're not likely to have many whistles to choose from, now are ya?

Besides, being able to set speed records with a race car doesn't mean you're able to overhaul the engine. Different skillset.

--James

Jetboy · Post by **Jetboy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:46 pm

I recall a thread that I initiated sometime ago on this subject that got quite heated.

it all hinged around the premise that one had to be a first class whistle player to make a first class whistle - a premise that I heartily disagreed with. I believe that one needs an uderstanding of what a whistle needs to do and is capable of doing in order to make the instrument, it takes the likes of Mary Bergin to actually get it to do it. A good maker will know what is needed without necessarily having the ability to do it himself (herself).

I have said it before, a whistle of mine can sound average in my hands but utterly different in a pro's.

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:15 pm

"Oh what a tangled web I" ... "let out of this Pandora's box."

It seems as if this debate was lurking just below the surface, and while I did not intend to dig exactly there, where I did dig was sufficiently close to the subject to vent it (again aparently.)

Let me say this about that ...

I do not desire to displace any whistle makers or whistle players anywhere in the known universe. I merely wish to make the best whisle I can. I enjoy using things I have made. I recently have made my own wallet, my own poncho, my own backpack and my own camp stove. I intend to make my own kayak (canoe to some here.)

I HAVE worked for a number of race teams (thanks for opening that door peeplj), IndyCar mainly, and will work on adjusting the car, but DO NOT drive the things. It is quite possible to help make a better car without doing the driving. It is NOT possible to make a good car without SOMEBODY driving. The more skill the driver has, the quicker the car will be properly adjusted. The more skill the engineer has, the quicker the car will be properly adjusted. Rarely are the engineer and driver the same person. But when they are, a lot of the communication problems drop right away.

So back to the original question ...

Should I expect to be able make a whistle on which I - of humble skill - can easily play all the notes in two octaves? If yes, I will set upon that quest. If no, then I will set upon playing some tunes.

(but it's all fun regardless - no heat please!)

Mack.Hoover · Post by **Mack.Hoover** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:22 pm

"Should I expect to be able make a whistle on which I - of humble skill - can easily play all the notes in two octaves? If yes, I will set upon that quest. If no, then I will set upon playing some tunes."

I say YES Carey carry on! And play on, too!