Recording irish flute

[monkey587]

<a href="http://william.bajzek.com/fluteandguitar.mp3">Here's the result of this evening's work.</a>

The microphones on each instrument were a combination of a Shure BG4.1 and an EV967. I'm really happy with how this worked for the guitar, but with two hours of mucking around, that's the best I could do with the flute. I tried several different combinations, positions, etc but it always either sounded muddy or fuzzy.

Can anyone recommend techniques/mics for recording irish flute?

[JeffS]

I have two responses, technical and a more general.

Technically, I don't know how you can improve the sound.

Generally, some of the very best traditional irish music (including flute) is recorded on primitive equipment in someone's kitchen. While I applaud your effort to get the best quaility recording, I remind you that this is, at it's core, folk music.

By the way, I thought your flute sounded quite good and the guitarist played a VERY tastefull back up for you. I look forward to hearing more of your music.

Best regards,
JeffS

[monkey587]

I have two responses, technical and a more general.

Technically, I don't know how you can improve the sound.

Generally, some of the very best traditional irish music (including flute) is recorded on primitive equipment in someone's kitchen. While I applaud your effort to get the best quaility recording, I remind you that this is, at it's core, folk music.

By the way, I thought your flute sounded quite good and the guitarist played a VERY tastefull back up for you. I look forward to hearing more of your music.

Best regards,
JeffS

Well, yeah, I'm aware of the kitchen thing. I even recorded in my kitchen for extra trad value.

I appreciate the compliment, by the way. The dual purposes of tonight's project were to try out some recording setup ideas and to hear how my current backing ideas sound when I'm not in the driver's seat, so to speak. So, both instruments were played by myself.

[treeshark]

Nice stuff, the flute sounds pretty good already you could add a little compression that will bring back the edge, not too much tho!

[mrosenlof]

It sounds pretty good to me!

I haven't recorded flute a lot, but the microphone configurations that have worked for me are

1) Mic inline with the flute body pointing directly at the cap of the headjoint

2) Mic perpendicular to the flute body pointing about at the headjoint socket.

In both cases, as close as I can get without the mic getting whacked by the flute.

[flutey1]

nice. the quality is way better than any recordings I've been able to do of myself. but then, I only have a little microphone thing that attaches to my ipod, so that's probably why

[monkey587]

It sounds pretty good to me!

I haven't recorded flute a lot, but the microphone configurations that have worked for me are

1) Mic inline with the flute body pointing directly at the cap of the headjoint

2) Mic perpendicular to the flute body pointing about at the headjoint socket.

In both cases, as close as I can get without the mic getting whacked by the flute.

I did try #1 for a while. I found that my flute projects forward so much (not necessaraily more than others' flutes, since I have nothing to compare to) that I had to turn up the gain on the mics too much to get a good level and there was too much noise from my lousy preamps.

[brotherwind]

Very nice in deed!

[johnkerr]

Can anyone recommend techniques/mics for recording irish flute?

William, I haven't been able to listen to your clip yet since I'm at work and my computer here has no sound card, but I can tell you even without having heard it that miking a flute is a tricky proposition. (Also tricky is trying to spell that conjugation of the verb form of the abbreviation for the noun 'microphone'. Is it 'miking' or 'micing'? The latter kind of makes it look like you'd be applying small rodents to your flute...) From your description, it sounds like you were using two mics, which actually might make things even harder than using just one.

Here's what I have done to record myself (and you can hear a short clip of the result on the Clips and Snips flute page at http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/flute.html ): I have a small AudioTechnica lapel-type microphone that I attach to my headjoint with an elastic loop secured by Velcro. I clip the mic on so that it is in line with the body of the flute. In live situations (e.g. playing at ceilis through a sound board with other instruments mixed in) I usually have the mic positioned just above the embouchure hole, between the hole and the end cap, and pointing toward the hole. However, in doing recordings such as this one (into GarageBand on my Mac) I have found that the sound is a bit too much with the mic that close to the hole, so I instead clip it on further down the headjoint, almost at the ring just above the tuning slide, and still pointing at the hole. Beyond this I have done just a bit of tweaking on the echo, reverb, etc, with the GarageBand software controls to get it to a point where I think it sounds fairly good and hopefully like it would sound to a nearby listener.

I'm no expert on recording technology, but from what I have heard it is very important that you get the embouchure as close to the mic as possible when you're playing a flute into it - just as a singer would need to "mouth" a Shure vocal mic (which you can also use for the flute BTW). This necessitates having a windscreen on the mic, which I also use on my little mic. I have known other flute players who do a lot more recording and amplified performance than I do to have success using a so-called Madonna mic, i.e. the ones that are held on with a headstrap. (I believe this is what Mr. Flatley does, although with him it may just be to preserve the illusion that he's not lip-synching - as it were - so the sound he gets may or may not be a reflection of what that kind of mic is capable of.) Anyway, because you're playing so closely into the mic, any movement in or out no matter how small will be reflected in the sound. That's one advantage to clip-on or headset mics, because using a free-standing mic limits your body movement quite a bit, and can result in ergonomic issues if you do it for long periods of time.

I look forward to listening to your clip when I get home, and maybe after I've heard it I might have some other suggestions for you.

[bayswater]

Sounds great! What tune is it?

[bradhurley]

That's the Maid of Mt. Kisco.

I'm not an expert on this stuff either, but given the mics you're using, I'd say it's more of an EQ and mixing issue than anything else...you might want to experiment with boosting some of the higher frequencies to give it more crispness and take away the mud. Sound engineers always seem to want to take off the top of the flute and boost the mid or bottom end, which gives a sound that I really hate...very smooth and mellow, not at all the sound you want to get from an Irish flute, maybe it's more like a jazz flute or the sound you get from a synthesizer when you choose the "flute" voice. Anyway it's not what we want as Irish flute players! And while not going overboard on reverb, you might want to aim for a wetter mix, which helps fill things out and seems to bring out the best qualities of the flute.

[monkey587]

Can anyone recommend techniques/mics for recording irish flute?

Here's what I have done to record myself (and you can hear a short clip of the result on the Clips and Snips flute page at http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/flute.html ): I have a small AudioTechnica lapel-type microphone that I attach to my headjoint with an elastic loop secured by Velcro.

Oops... I just sold mine. On eBay, to the store that sold it to me, for $50 less.

I clip the mic on so that it is in line with the body of the flute. In live situations (e.g. playing at ceilis through a sound board with other instruments mixed in) I usually have the mic positioned just above the embouchure hole, between the hole and the end cap, and pointing toward the hole. However, in doing recordings such as this one (into GarageBand on my Mac) I have found that the sound is a bit too much with the mic that close to the hole, so I instead clip it on further down the headjoint, almost at the ring just above the tuning slide, and still pointing at the hole. Beyond this I have done just a bit of tweaking on the echo, reverb, etc, with the GarageBand software controls to get it to a point where I think it sounds fairly good and hopefully like it would sound to a nearby listener.

I'm no expert on recording technology, but from what I have heard it is very important that you get the embouchure as close to the mic as possible when you're playing a flute into it - just as a singer would need to "mouth" a Shure vocal mic (which you can also use for the flute BTW). This necessitates having a windscreen on the mic, which I also use on my little mic. I have known other flute players who do a lot more recording and amplified performance than I do to have success using a so-called Madonna mic, i.e. the ones that are held on with a headstrap. (I believe this is what Mr. Flatley does, although with him it may just be to preserve the illusion that he's not lip-synching - as it were - so the sound he gets may or may not be a reflection of what that kind of mic is capable of.) Anyway, because you're playing so closely into the mic, any movement in or out no matter how small will be reflected in the sound. That's one advantage to clip-on or headset mics, because using a free-standing mic limits your body movement quite a bit, and can result in ergonomic issues if you do it for long periods of time.

I look forward to listening to your clip when I get home, and maybe after I've heard it I might have some other suggestions for you.

My EV mic is similar to an SM57 but more tuned for vocals; I bought it because it was recommended by fingerpick.com for live guitar sound. I would only use it on its own to record guitar if there were several other instruments going at once, but combined with the condenser I thought it gave a nice warmth to the guitar. I tried playing the flute straight into it as I would live, but that didn't work. I felt that the combination of mics on the flute was better than either individually, but there's still a funny quality to the high end. Given how much time I spent looking for "the sweet spot," I'm now wondering if maybe a mic with a wider pickup pattern would have been more appropriate.

[monkey587]

That's the Maid of Mt. Kisco.

I'm not an expert on this stuff either, but given the mics you're using, I'd say it's more of an EQ and mixing issue than anything else...you might want to experiment with boosting some of the higher frequencies to give it more crispness and take away the mud. Sound engineers always seem to want to take off the top of the flute and boost the mid or bottom end, which gives a sound that I really hate...very smooth and mellow, not at all the sound you want to get from an Irish flute, maybe it's more like a jazz flute or the sound you get from a synthesizer when you choose the "flute" voice. Anyway it's not what we want as Irish flute players! And while not going overboard on reverb, you might want to aim for a wetter mix, which helps fill things out and seems to bring out the best qualities of the flute.

I boosted the mids on the flute. This morning I turned off the EQ and it sounded better, but again, there's something funny about the high end. Often I can fix things by undoing something I did

I thought it was too harsh without the boost, but maybe I overdid it.

[michael_coleman]

Sounds excellent to me. I might bring the flute a little louder in the mix.

[johnkerr]

I boosted the mids on the flute. This morning I turned off the EQ and it sounded better, but again, there's something funny about the high end. Often I can fix things by undoing something I did

I thought it was too harsh without the boost, but maybe I overdid it.

Is there any way in your current setuo that you can make these kinds of adjustments after you've done the recording, rather than before? (Or maybe that's what you're already doing and I'm not understanding you correctly.) One of the advantages to GarageBand, which is what I've been using, is that it lets me tweak reverb, echo and such on the track after it's been recorded - which is a lot less frustrating than having to re-record every time you want to try a different setting.

I'd be willing to bet that almost every studio flute recording ever made has done at least some tweaking after the fact to sweeten the sound. It can't be all in the equipment and how it's set up, or there would be a manual out there telling you how to do it. This is why studio engineers (and sound techs at live gigs) make the big bucks...